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Dear masters and experts,
What type of plate is this? Is it genuine or fake? Is it worth much? Many thanks in advance. luke
Hi Luke,
it’s intended to look like a kraak plate made for the Dutch Eastindia Company. But it looks a bit dubious to me, neither Ming nor Kangxi. There’s a difference between the perfect front and the dirty back side. Strange circular lines on the foot. Painting looks stiff, the color too blackish. Can it be that fakers now also use old wire hangers?
Birgit
I also remember that, Nic. There is definitely a thread on here somewhere that mentions it.
It doesn't look like Chinese to me, either: to me, the pattern is atypical as well as stiff. I also think the VOC is so insignificant. It gets lost in the decoration because it is so small. That seems odd compared to examples sold by Christie's.
This is what it says on the Gotheborg site "Very few of the porcelain pieces in the use of the VOC were ever marked and fakes with the VOC mark added to heighten interest, abounds today. Everything from clumsy South East Asian pieces that would not fool anyone except the most optimistic bargain hunters, to real good pieces, mostly looking as if they were Japanese."
It does look more Japanese than Chinese but I feel caution is required. As Birgit says, maybe old wire hangers are the faker's new accessory.
Interesting case.
I would wash that dirt off properly to see the real surface and colours on both sides.
Decorations are in my opinion to complex for a genuine Arita plate from the 17th C but more accurate for late 18th early 19th.
I might be wrong but it looks genuine to me.
Best of luck with this one, I hope you have a real piece my friend!
Kind regards,
Adrian
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I agree this looks old, and the spur marks on the base , and deep blue colouring suggest it's definitely Japanese rather than Chinese. Nicely painted , imo, especially the birds. You could do research on the spur marks - I remember reading that fewer = older (or = younger, can't recall which)
tam
This certainly looks to be an early Edo period VOC plate to me. Japan was a major source of porcelain in the 1600’s but trade slowly faded to the end of the Edo period. The three spur marks and the darker blue look correct to other examples I have seen. But as Adrian points out the design is a bit cluttered, but I don’t think this should eliminate it being true VOC.
i must add that I am no expert like the others, I recall being convinced of a real Chinese VOC Kandi only to find out it was period Delft.
The more I look at this plate the more I like it 🙂
Those medallions on the lip of the plate - each depicts different scene with birds or insects and floral motifs.
The birds in central part and their feather - truly skilled artist had painted that!
But the part I love the most are those waves between the rocks!
Quite a lot is going on there in terms of decorations 🙂 Very interesting!
Ronm could be right here and this is indeed an early plate. I am just familiar with more ruffly decorated Arita wares from the 17th C, hence my opinion was shifting towards a bit later dating.
All the best,
Adrian
Feel free to browse the store:
www.malkaart.com
Inquiries:
[email protected]
I'm having a hard time with this dish...
I'm leaning to the idea that the dish is not a Japanese copy contemporaneous with 17th century Chinese pieces, but rather a later Japanese (due only to spur marks) fake.
The top looks to be at least partially printed with little signs of variation in the central medallion indicating where the brush strokes start and stop. The overly mechanical VOC logo seems to be just crowded in there for good measure.
The only other possibility that I can think of is that this design was, as was the case with many VOC marked dishes, a one-off custom order based on European designs (ie. Cornelis Plonk) that had required extremely meticulous and therefore sterile copying. This hypothesis however doesn't account for the really sloppy, almost Swatow-esque potting on the backside.
hmmm...
Agree with you Kaolin. Front and back of this plate just don’t go together. It seemed printed to me too at first glance but it might just be painted in a careful but soulless way. Fitzhugh was also painted in a meticulous way but looks different. You see I’m still not convinced about this plate, which also looks artificially dirtied. Whatever it turns out to be, this is an interesting discussion with so many different opinions.
Birgit
Hi Luke -
Attach images of two large Japanese late 17th C dishes, both 36.5 cm diam, sold at Christie’s, 2018 and Sotheby’s, 2019 for comparison.
Notice the difference in the painting style and overall design compositions of these two pieces, very different to the dish posted.
As an aside - the Japanese started to produce copies of the Chinese ‘Kraak’ style wares from the mid 17th century for Dutch merchants, who could no longer obtain there pieces from China due to turmoil caused by the fall of the Ming dynasty.
Stuart
Hi everyone, thank you so much for contributing in this very interesting discussion. I learnt a lot, indeed. I took Adrian's advice and have told the seller to tell the owner of the plate to wash off the back side of the plate so we can see everything clearly without dirt, dust, spiderweb and what not. Once I got the pics of clean back side I will post them again in here. By the way, I was told that the diameter of the plate is 42 cm. Warmest, luke
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