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Hey folks,
I figured I'd ask what you all thought this is? It was pretty enough and interesting enough that I figured I could spend a few bucks on it. Plus I have always liked horses. Many thanks.
Its almost 12" in diameter.
Jeremy
Well here's a similar one but a different size and the design is slightly different. I know this doesn't speak to its authenticity(authentic what I do not know), but at least a similar plate exists.
Jeremy
My first thought on seeing the front, was Japanese, but that would be explained if it is indeed ko-sometsuke.
I hope Stuart looks in, he will know if it is Ming. My thoughts are that the unglazed base and the way the grass is done is unusual. Possibly also an unusual composition in the way the decoration fills the plate but I have seen some ko-sometsuke with a less sparse decoration.
I really don't know but as I would love to collect Tianqi porcelain, I would love to find out if this is genuine.
Julia,
I too thought the decoration looked rather Japanese. The unglazed base seems unusual to me, though admittedly I have only every seen one piece of Tianqi porcelain in person. When I bought it I kind of thought perhaps Kitchen Qing or something like that, though the decoration then looked off. I really haven't a clue.
Jeremy
It is a bit of a puzzle. Hopefully Stuart will look in and shed some light. Also, Birgit is good at Kitchen Qing, maybe she will be able to add something.
Hi Jeremy -
Interesting piece ..!!
Having looked at the images I initially thought this may be a Zhangzhou or, as its still referred to in the West, Swatow piece. The painting style, glaze tone and multiple imperfections within may indicate an attribution to such so, possibly, first half 17th C ...
The large size would discount it been made for the Japanese market as Ko-sometsuki wares, which were specifically ordered/produced for the Tea Ceremony, are usually much smaller in size. However, the motif composition of horses under a pine tree within a landscape are certainly known on such wares ...
However, I can find no close references in my database/library so, as mentioned by Julia, it also possible this could either be a Japanese interpretation of this design, or indeed a much later kitchen Qing take on such ...
I also hope that Birgit sees this thread and can add something with her knowledge on these later wares ...
Stuart
Stuart,
Thanks for the reply. I find it quite interesting. The glaze and impurities had me thinking about Zhangzhou pieces as well, and the unglazed base I have seen on only a few pieces in that era, the foot is also trimmed quite well so not exactly simple and quickly done, so not entirely sure if that’s it. It has been raining and cloudy so later when the sun comes out I’ll try and get a sunny shot of the cobalt.
I am rather confused as I am fairly certain it is not newer than 19th, just from general appearance, also the paste despite the impurities has a rather high quality to it.
I suppose I will be studying this for a good bit longer.
-Jeremy
I
have a Chinese ox blood with similar base darkened and trimming I think it’s late 19th century. I have always thought darken bases like this mean yesterday.
SO a small update, though not conclusive, I have found a few other similar examples that have been dated to the 18th and 19th centuries.... They are both better painted in my opinion, but I am now at least looking in the right place it seems.
Jeremy
https://www.catawiki.com/l/20694927-blue-white-round-platter-with-horses-china-19th-century
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/98210891_chinese-blue-and-white-plate-with-2-horses-yongzheng
and this third one is of deer but similar in composition
https://www.petrierogers.com/items/1236020/Chinese-Qing-Qianlong-Porcelain-Dish-Deer
I find it interesting how the styles of the trees, grass and bats differ.
I would also like to know, if anyone can explain, how one might date the second one to Yongzheng. I don't think I would, so I would like to see what I am missing.
Julia I feel as though there is a very distinct push to the abstract in the design elements the later they get, I suppose that could mean mine is 19th century.... I am not sure. I do not know you they picked Yongzheng, to me it doesn't look refined enough, especially considering the Deer plate being Qianlong. I feel that both of the horse plates would make sense more in the late 18th early 19th than anything else.
Jeremy
I think you have phrased that perfectly; it seems not refined enough for Yongzheng.
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