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Hello everyone. I just found the forum today and have spent a couple of hours reading through the posts. I've already learned more here than I could find using Google.
I have a very small collection of Black Ship Imari. It seems that even the tiniest detail makes all the difference in determining the age of the pieces and I just don't have the knowledge yet. Would it be possible to find out how old my pieces might be? If so, is it preferable to put each piece into it's own reply?
Here's a photo of the group and the two small bowls that are in the front of the picture. They're 7" in diameter.
This plate is in the front middle of the group photo. It's 8 1/4" in diameter.
There are a pair of these large plates. They are 10" in diameter.
And the last piece is the bowl. It's 8 1/2" in diameter and 2 1/2" tall. I learned from one of the posts here that the symbol on the bottom is a Kotobuki mark. 🙂
@sassafras hello!! google: NANBAN 'BLACK-SHIPS' PATTERN
i think by comparison you can get a sense of period(?)
Thank you very much! While looking at pieces online, I noticed that most of the Dutchmen do not have painted shoes however a few do. Is that of any significance as far as age?
@sassafras Hold on until our resident expert John takes another break from his bar exam studies, he is @bartholin and has an impressive collection of black ships and one appears as his identifier, he will be able to address your questions and concerns, others may also have educated opinions on these interesting wares.
Thank you so very much!
They look good to me! I have one charger in that pattern from the early 19th c. You have quite the collection!
Thank you @sharonp for your very generous characterization, although I'd consider myself more of an enthusiast than an expert in this area! 😋
Hi @sassafras! Welcome to our forum - I hope you weren't waiting for my response as I am very much in the same predicament as you are with dating these pieces. You have a splendid collection, and I enjoyed seeing them! I hope you'll continue enjoying our little community here. 😊
As you've probably seen, there are plenty of contradictions and uncertainties discussing this pattern. The many variations further exacerbate the difficulties in prescribing general rules to look out for to help with dating.
My gut feeling is that the front pair and center back bowl are late 19th century Meiji, and the middle pair is late 19th/early 20th Meiji. I think the center plate might be the oldest of the bunch, perhaps late Edo or early Meiji.
My folder on this pattern is also limited, but these are what I was able to find in museums:
- First at the BM is attributed to 1801-1850.
- Second at the BM is attributed to "18thC" generally.
- Last at the MET is attributed to "Late 18th-early 19th".
Even the BM Curators have noted the difficulties of dating this pattern in the second link where they write:
"This piece with its central roundel of a Dutch ship and surrounding border of Dutchmen may be of a later date, when general knowledge of the appearance of Europeans had spread more widely into the general pictorial repertoire of the Japanese."
Some consider Roger Soame Jenyns to be the authority for general dating of this pattern, in his book "Japanese Porcelain" written in 1965. This is the relevant discussion:
You'll see that plate 45a is #1 at the British Museum in the link above. I've not yet cite-checked Old Imari, but his observation that most are "patently nineteenth-century" is the best we have to go on it, yet he doesn't narrow down the timeframe or provide guidelines to make that determination. He also doesn't make reference to any early 20th-century Meiji reproductions, which is unfortunate.
I had a couple of my pieces sent to Peter back when he only did email responses, and these were his email replies:
Peter attributes my first bowl to 1800-1820, which is likely within the 1804-1829 Bunka/Bunsei period that Jenyns referenced.
The issue then becomes - How do we differentiate pieces that fall within this late Edo (1804-1829) timeframe from late 19th/early 20th-century Meiji pieces? This is where I'm at a loss. Some folks really focus on indications of general wear, while others are trying to create general rules based on design execution.
Aside from general wear and other porcelain/glaze characteristics, some design elements that I like to look for when buying this pattern that I personally use for attributing this 1804-1829 date range are the following:
- Central ship that fills the central medallion tightly (as Peter suggested).
- Central ship that has two dutchmen on it.
- Not always the case, as with the MET example, although I'm unsure of the accuracy of the date on that one.
- Dutchmen with well-detailed faces and clothing.
- Highly subjective, but compare #1 at the BM in the above link for this.
- Dutchmen with relatively normal proportions
- Compare #1 at the BM again. Later Meiji examples seem to usually have excessively longer legs and a shorter torso.
- Waves that are green enameled.
I think the majority of these pieces date to the late 19th/early 20th century, and they can look a bit more rushed. These design elements are generally what I look for when attributing a piece to late Edo/Meiji or later:
- Smaller central ship
- Excessively large empty white spaces
- Compare the middle pair with the others in the group, especially around the "shield" surrounded by underglaze blue leaves.
Of course, these are just my personal observations that I've been using. We might be trying to find trends in design execution where they likely can't be found because of the large number of regions, kilns, and individual potters creating this popular motif.
I like collecting maritime subjects depicted on porcelain, and like odd variations even if later! I've posted most of my pieces here in the forum 😊 Most of them are Meiji or later with the exception of the bowl evaluated by Peter. I'll post them here again in case they've disappeared:
Jenyns doesn't discuss this alternate "black ships" design with a group of dutchmen on a red background alternating with the ship on a white background, but I think my rice bowl is late Edo and the plate is Meiji. I forgot to send it to Peter, but your post has reminded me to do that!
I enjoyed seeing your collection very much and can't wait to see more in the future. Thank you for posting them. I hope it was a bit interesting!
Kind regards,
John
A very detailed and informative response from @bartholin aka John. He certainly knows his stuff!
One other way that you can date Japanese plates is the number of spur marks. Technically spur marks were or the number presented help date Japanese wares. But not bowls!
The use of said were not used after about 1910. The number present also reduces during the late Meiji period 1868-1912.
However the size is of importance here. Technically the larger size the more spur marks.
From what I know spur marks is a good indicator of identifying Japanese porcelain plates. Chinese i believe did not use them.
Certainly by the Taisho period 1912-1926 one would rarely if ever see spur marks.
@sassafras you have purchased yourself a very nice collection.
Mark
Thanks to John and Mark. My Jenyns copy is well worn. However, I wish it had more blue & white illustrations. The photo section's focus is the wonderful color examples. As color illustrations in books of that time were mostly BxW. Mostly unknown to the greater public in the west before 1965. A great book! It was the first book I bought in 1970s in the PX at Camp Zama.
An other staple book of all times was the two volume "Cox Pottery and Porcelain" of 1970. Very useful for any pottery or Porcelain of the world!. It's Chinese and Japanese sections is complete with the first book of marks I had seen.
IMO, The Schiffer book "Japanese Pottery and Porcelain" is full of pictures and lacking on written information. While the Jenyns and Cox books are 80% information and 20% pictures - mostly BxW in the Cox.
Another book from Japan on Chinese porcelain with huge pictures (one picture per page). Not reading japanese I have no ideal if it is still available.
David
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