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Hey folks,
Just wondering if anyone has an idea on the dating of this bowl, or seen this phoenix? and cloud design before. I think it will display nicely with a few other bowls I have, Meiji and Ming, that are proportionally the same.
I think I recall seeing this on Edo period pieces more than later ones.
Anything you all can think of will help.
Cheers,
Jeremy
It's a very nice bowl.
It's Japanese and imo from the late Meiji period 1868-1912 to Taisho period. So circa 1900-1920.
Mark
Hi Jeremy -
This phoenix/cloud motif is first seen on blue/white in the Hongwu and Yongle periods, so very early Ming ...
I will try and trace/post some images later for comparison ...
Stuart
Thanks for the dating Mark, I have only seen the marks drawn like this on earlier pieces. But I do recall something about the inner blue circle and its distance from the foot indicating a later date if it is right up against it.
It is funny how for collecting I am seemingly gravitating to Japanese pieces, I of course can't afford the better examples of the Chinese pieces I would like to add to my collection. This bowl seems balanced decoration wise, reminding me of Ming bowls in a way.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Stuart I would love to see some examples. This new bowl is meant to sit next to these two, the first one being Ming and the second is a Japanese mid 19th century bowl by Hisatomi Yojibei Masayasu which reminded me a bit of Kangxi designs.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy and all -
Phoenixes amongst clouds, some image comparisons:-
1:- Stem bowl, Yuan dynasty, H.9.5cm, excavated from a hoard in Jining ancient site, Inner Mongolia Autonomous region in 2004, Institute of Cultural Relics and Archaeology, Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region ...
2/3:- Bowl with b/w phoenixes amongst clouds to exterior, and same design moulded on interior cavetto, Hongwu period, HK private collection ...
4/5/6:- Stem bowl, Yongle period, H. 11.5cm, excavated from later Yongle stratum at Zhushan, Imperial Kiln site, 1984. Jingdezhen Ceramic Archaeological Research Institute ...
7:- White glazed bowl with design in iron-red, Yongle period, H. 7.3cm, D. 13.2cm, excavated from later Yongle stratum, at Zhushan, Imperial kiln site, 1984, JDZ Ceramic Archaeological Research Institute ...
8:- Brush washer, Xuande mark/period, D. 17.5cm, Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing ...
9:- Stem bowl, mid 15th century, probably Zhengtong period ...
On Ming Imperial pieces this phoenixes/cloud design was only used occasionally follow the Xuande reign, the phoenixes amongst scrolling lotus motif appears to have been more preferred ...
On minyao/private kiln pieces, the single/double phoenix/cloud design is occasionally seen but, as with Imperial commissions, the phoenix/scrolling lotus design appears to have been preferred and widely used ...
Will defer to Mark/others knowledge of Japanese pieces for attributed dating, but a nice bowl and will undoubtedly look great next to your other pieces ...
I hope the above is of some help ...
Stuart
It is a lovely bowl you have an interesting, following Stuart's comments, that it is a very Chinese design. I can see why you feel it could be edo, especially as there was that period in the 1600s when I seem to recall Chinese refugee potters worked in Japan. Sorry had to stop there and check - found it on wikipedia! I also found a nice article which I will post below.
As you mention, the blue circle on the base of Japanese items often moves out towards, in fact right up close to, the edge in more recent pieces, by which I mean roughly post-Meiji period - although don't hold me to that its just a vague guide!
However, I was certain I had seen earlier Edo pieces recently with the line right up near the edge. It has taken me all this time to find one again. I will post that below, too.
To be honest, I am not sure how old your bowl is, part of me agrees with Mark, but I do find what Stuart says about the pattern and the history of what was going on with Japanese porcelain production around the 1600s interesting and definitely food for thought.
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