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Hello,
I'd appreciate any thoughts on this small dish I picked up at a thrift shop in the US recently. The owner of the shop advised they came along with several other items from an estate belonging to a former diplomat at the US embassy in Vietnam, however had no additional info.
I'm not familiar with Vietnamese porcelain, however thought it might be given the design and provenance. The foot rim looked a bit odd to me, the gray-ish color and texture is quite different from the Chinese and Japanese pieces I've handled, as is the overall look of the dish. The dish is lightly potted and light is visible through the dish when held up to a bright light - the diameter is 6 1/4" (15.8cm). It was quite inexpensive so I thought I'd take a chance, however feel it may be a modern reproduction.
Thank you for any assistance.
- PT
Hi, I agree with you it’s Vietnamese and also has some age. 16th century is a possibility but I’m not really an expert for these things.
Birgit
@shinigami Hello Birgit,
Thank you for the reply, I will try and post some photos in natural light today as well.
Kind regards,
- PT
If you had not mentioned Vietnam in your original post I would have thought Ming transitional 17th century. It really looks Chinese, what makes it Vietnamese, the design? Don’t forget, many Swatow and late Ming blue and white pieces are found throughout SE Asia.
George
@gfhandel Thank you George - my thinking was based primarily on the design. The unglazed foot also has a rough, almost sandy feel. I've attached some additional photos taken outdoors for reference. They have a similarly potted bowl that is decorated with an animal - there are some larger unglazed spots on the base of that one. I may try and pick it up later today if it's still available.
Kind regards,
- PT
I had a chance to pickup the other dish / bowl they had available and wanted to share. It's noticeably heavier and slightly larger with a 7" diameter (17.7 cm). There is also some type of animal depicted in the center but I'm having trouble determining exactly what it's supposed to be 😀 .
The foot appears somewhat flatter and there is a spot of glaze missing on the base.
I'd appreciate any additional thoughts on this one
Thank you again.
- PT
Beautiful! I love the 2nd dish even more. Could that be a fish in the center?
I still have a vague feeling the first is Annamese, based only on the way the outer vine and leaf decoration is spaced. But, like George said, I'm not sure if I'd gone in that direction had you not mentioned it. It's helpful sometimes to remember that many Chinese potters migrated south to Annam, so there's plenty of grey area when trying to differentiate.
I'd wager the 2nd dish is even older, possibly 15th century. That 'flaming leaf' with the spiral center was used regularly on 15th century export wares, like those found on the Lena Shoal wreck. You can see one here on the bowl in the foreground:
@pt-collector
Hi PT -
Concur with George@ghhandel, both these are Ming pieces ...
The central motif on the second dish is a fish amongst waves with lotus scroll to the exterior - it dates to the late 15th/early 16th century - Hongzhi/Zhengde periods ...
The first piece lacks the brown staining to the base, commonly seen on Vietnamese pieces - the painting style is also very different to such wares and indicates Chinese ...
Stuart
George and Stuart are of course right. Though the first dish had initially a Vietnamese touch to me the second one is clearly Ming. I have watched a similar looking fish dish for years on Edmund Grundner‘s site and finally bought it a few months ago. Since then they seem to be popping up everywhere, a phenomenon we recently talked about. Mine looks a bit more angry.
Birgit
@shinigami - thank you Birgit, that does look quite like mine! I will be sure to read through that conversation on the similar pieces popping up. @Ming1449, thank you for the additional context and dating.
Kind regards,
- PT
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