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Hey all,
So the rest arrived.... I'm stunned to be honest. I think they are all good, maybe Hongzhi through Jiajing or early Wanli.
The Jiajing/wanli dish or bowl is about 30cm, the peacock and peony charger 31cm, and the floral one is 20cm..
Just wondering your thoughts.
Jeremy
P.S. Would anyone be willing to fly here and pinch me?
I will update the pics of the Jiajing once the overspray is stripped.
It is coming off slowly.
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 I'm not familiar with overspray - what's that all about? They look great and the first one with the phoenix looks extra fantastic to me, but I know virtually nothing about these wares. I'm lookin forward to Stuart's assessment! John
John,
By overspray I just mean the restorer sprayed a cold glaze on it, it blurs the look of the porcelain, and yellows over time, at least older cold glazes do. I think the phoenix is actually a peacock and the pattern is called peacock and peonies. I have seen two peacocks but not one on both feet, usually they are holding one up, hope this is a legit variant.
Looking forward to Stuart's expertise on this too.... I took a stab at these.
Seems like they are all okay to my inexperienced eye.
Jeremy
This is particularly fine example:
Hi Jeremy -
Peacock/peony/rock is late 15th/early16th century, so Hongzhi/early Zhengde, one of the most used motif combinations from this period …
Same dating for the second dish, similar pieces were recovered from Lena Shoal junk …
The ducks/lotus pond dish is mid/late 16th century, around 1550-1580/90, so late Jiajing/early Wanli …
I will try and find/post some comparison tomorrow …
Stuart
@jbeer2121 why would restore spray cold glaze? I’m interested because I have a cold glaze plate.
Hi Jeremy -
Attached images/descriptions for comparison:-
Images 1/2/3/4&5:- show the variety of painting styles for such peacock/peony and rock dishes and the cavetto decoration, which is usually lotus scrolls …
Image 6:- two small dishes recovered from Lena Shoal junk …
Image 7:- exterior decoration of a bowl of ducks/lotus pond, formerly in the Ardebil Shine collection, now in the National Museum of Tehran …
I have found a number of dishes with similar designs to the mouth rim as your piece, all dated to mid/late 16th century, but have yet to trace an example with the ducks/lotus pond central decoration. I will keep looking …
I have a similar peacock/peony dish in my collection, will forward images on separate post …
Stuart
Hi Jeremy -
Attached images of my peacock/peony dish acquired nearly 20 years ago …
Hongzhi period, D. 31.8cm, H. 6.5cm FD. 18.2cm ..
Very similar overall composition to yours and the other examples forwarded but the cavetto flowers are, probably, chrysanthemums which are rarely depicted on such pieces …
Another dish with chrysanthemum follows is illustrated in Prof John Carswells ‘Blue and White - Chinese Porcelain around the Word’, pl. 144, pg. 131, which was found in Syria and now in a private collection - last image …
Dishes produced during this period usually exhibit a recessed base, which is easily seen/felt, does your piece have this feature? …
I have included an image taken in racking light, just to show the extensive ware such pieces usually exhibit …
Stuart
Brian,
I think some restorers spray it while others brush it on in limited areas... I think it just comes down to coverage and finish that can be achieved.
I will say when I was purchasing Golden Porcelain Restoration Glaze, spraying was recommended for large areas, though it should be thinned considerably.
Jeremy
Stuart,
Thank you for again posting such great examples, and yours which is much finer than the one I just got. Interesting that it has chrysanthemums, I had never seen such an example.
I do feel that the foot is trimmed up and recessed, also quite undercut, unfortunately it appears that they trimmed so much off in the center that the middle sort of cracked and collapsed.
I too found a number of examples of Jiajing/Wanli dishes with the border decoration and the reverse decoration, though have yet to find one with the ducks on the lotus pond, with those same attributes. As the overglaze has come off I unfortunately see that it has been shattered, but I also can see the true colors of it and the fineness of the glaze.
I did find a shot of the large quantity of these (borders, reverse decorations are evident) in the Fort San Sebastian Wreck, and there appears to be many many variants of the designs and medallions, though I did not see a duck on lotus pond themed one.
Many thanks,
Jeremy
Here is a link to a paper on a wreck with similar examples, unfortunately the other site I found a picture on wont let me share the page.
https://www.academia.edu/43086869/Report_on_the_wreck_of_the_Espadarte_1558_IDM_002_Mozambique_2010
Hi Jeremy -
My pleasure to be of some help and thank you for posting the document on shipwreck, fascinating and with some great images!! ...
Just to clarify:- the 'recessed base' references the central area on these dishes, I have seen examples were this is so pronounced the piece will not sit evenly but rocks side to side ...
Sorry to hear the duck/lotus pond dish is so damaged, I hope it can be restored ...
Stuart
Stuart,That makes sense, recessed in the other direction than my brain was thinking.... that is sort of what has occurred on the peacock one then. Though it does sit flat for the most part, perhaps they thinned the bases too much during this time.
It is funny though because I noticed on my previously posted Hongzhi/Zhengde dish, which I sold on catawiki, and also in the floral charger, it seems that they were heavily potted and then significantly trimmed downwards ( if the dish is upside down) to make the base more manageable. I feel like the base is very deeply cut, if that makes sense?
Also as to the damage, it has never really bothered me, considering how long it took for the pieces to end up in my hands, and the lives they lived. but thank you and I do suppose restoration should make it look much better.
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy -
From these images, it appears most of the dish is still there ...
Much dependent on what you decide to do with it. If undertaking, restoration would not be cheap but would make it look much better ...
Stuart
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