Dear Jasonma,

can't say much about the Song plate but I have a bad feeling about the vase. Could you show some closeups of the figures painted on it?

Best regards

Birgit

Dear Birgit:

Sure.

I really appreciate your words.

Best Regards

Jason

Hi 

I think if these were sold as 'song' and 'yongzheng' then you should return them to the auction house and ask for your money back - just my view. Both  would be worth much more if they were real , and both look very suspect to me.

The colours on the vase are all wrong , and the base too looks nothing like an C18th foot /base should look like. Also the shape of the vase seems clumsy  , with a very top heavy and enlarged lip/rim.

There was another thread on this forum where a similar (albeit conical) song dish was discussed and Xin said there that you should not see the pooling of the blue glaze in the inside (exactly like you can see in yours here). Also the base is not what you would expect to see , I think , for song wares. 

Good luck , any decent auction house should stand by its lots and accept mistakes it has made. 

Judging from the painting of the figures and the colors, the vase seems to be from the late 20th century. As Tam already said, you should try to cancel your purchase. It might be a good idea to gather some knowledge by reading books and going to museums. Song dynasty is a difficult field for the beginner, but it takes less effort to learn about the different painting styles from say 1700 until today. And it's fun too.

Best regards

Birgit

Dear Tam and Birgit:

Thank you for your words. I agree with you guys that it is hard to judging a Song ware because it does not provide too many clues other than foot and glaze. The foot looks too clean and white which looked suspicious. I just trusted the auction house too much and lost my judgement when bidding.

Now back to the vase. I did some research and comparison before bidding, and I did find some similarity between the vase and other Yongzheng wares I found in books. Please see my findings below:

Regarding to the foot of the vase, this is the picture I took from a Yongzheng vase listed in The porcelain of Jingdezhen Civilian kiln of Qing Dynasty in the collection of the Chinese Palace Museum. I found it very similar to the vase I bought.

The picture of the vase I bought is on the right.

With regarding to the shape of the vase, I found in an authoritative book identifying Qing and Ming ware.

Please see the shape of #10.

With regarding to the colors of the famille rose, these are the pictures of the Yongzheng brush pots in the same book of Palace Museum.

Very similar colors and shades.

The only thing I could not confirm was the expression of the figures as Birgit pointed out. This was also pointed by the "expert" that I asked. He also said the glaze of the vase looked shiny which should not be like on a 18th century vase.  Does that look suspicious to you guys too?

Thank you.

Hi,

I agree with all Tam and Birgit have said which is why I didn't say anything sooner.  However, if it is ok, I will say something to follow up on your further points; specifically, the faces are definitely wrong to my eye.  Look at the noses and expressions, they look very mid/late 20thc or thereabouts.  It might be helpful to look up some of the vases from that period instead of Yongzheng ones.

I am also unhappy with the colours and the way they are used.  The clothing is quite garish and I feel uncomfortable with the blues and the amount of white and how that is used.  Also, given that there are so many different colours, I am surprised there is no aubergine.

To me this is definitely not a Yongzheng vase and I sincerely hope you have no trouble cancelling these sales.  I am quite surprised it was bid up so high but if an auction house is claiming it is Yongzheng, then that does give confidence that it could be.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

Julia

Hi 

thanks for the further info , you are right about the shape of the vase , I think , does shape #10 in that reference book have a special name ? if so you could search and find other C18th examples. In particular you might find only monchrome , or flambe examples in that shape , rather than polychrome famille rose enamelled vases. 

it is very hard to judge colours just by photos , because of variations in monitors' and cameras' colour balance , but on my laptop the shade , tone and translucency of the enamels on the vase and the brushpot look different (esp the yellow , pink and light blue or turquoise shades). Actually there seems to be no pink enamel on your vase, the robes are red , so this may not be strictly a 'famille rose' vase, which poses another question : do you find Yongzheng enamelled vases or plates that are neither famille rose nor famille verte? or is this vase famille verte or wucai? 

Yongzheng wares are characterised by the use of the new pink enamels and colours , so you would expect to see pink , as in the brushpot you posted. 

Sorry , I can't really judge the features of the glaze from the photos.

Dear Tam:

Thanks for your quick reply. They do have a name for the shape of the vase, but it is in Chinese, so when translated in English, it is something like "Vase with Plate Shaped Mouth". I do see images of famille rose of such vases, but just like you pointed out later, they do seem to be very different than the vase I bought. Acutally, the color of the vase is not even the same as the brush pot that I posted in my previous reply. They do look the same at first glance, however, if you look closely, you can find obvious difference. The colors on the brush pots look antique while the colors on my vase look more modern.

This was a pretty famous auction house, I am not sure if I should mention their name here. I was totally incautious when I was bidding, especially when you see other people competing with you, you are more likely be convinced the thing you are bidding on is authentic.

Thank you.

Dear Julia:

Thank you for your feedbacks. I really appreciate it very much.

You are right about the colors and expressions. Actually, if I had looked more closely before bidding, I might have found these problems myself. I made a mistake by focusing on finding what are right about the vase, rather than what are wrong about the vase. The foot and shape looked fine, plus the auction house itself looked trustable, so I neglected to find what was wrong about the vase.

I am contacting the auction house to cancel the bidding. Hopefully they will agree....

I hope so, too.  Let us know how you get on.

Good luck!

Dear Jason,

(supposing that this is your name) everyone has been right here, unfortunately.

The supposed Song dish is clearly modern, and the famille rose vase too.

As I often say, it is not necessary, in this case, to look for shape, colors, foot, etc., because the painting style immediately tells everything. It is a copy without the slightest doubt.

What is good for you is that you should not have problems in returning the purchases. You can tell the Auction house that you heard several opinions and everybody told you that they are clear copies.

If them make some story, tell them that you will bring the pieces to Christies, telling them where you bought them, and, if they will confirm that they are not original, as for sure they will do, you will ask them to refund the costs.

Since you said that it is a well known auction house, I see no problems in disclosing here who they are.

Your items are clear copies and it is a shame that an established auction house sell them at that price.

Giovanni

Either they knew they were selling fakes, then they‘re criminal, or they didn’t know, then they are a bad auction house. What also worries me is that both your items were fakes - how many other buyers did also get fakes?

Dear Shinigami, you are so right.

It will be very good if we can see that auction, just to know who is who next time.

Giovanni

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for your words. I really appreciate it.

I am not very sure if the auction house did that on purpose, which made them criminals like Shinigami said, or they made mistakes by accident. They have more than 1000 items for sale on the weekend, and most of them, to my limited knowledge, looked authentic. I actually bought 5 items from them, and the 2 I posted here are the ones that I suspect. The other 3 look fine to me, but I think maybe it is worth of posting them here to you guys. Please see below.

A Kangxi long neck vase, I bought it for $2750

A Ming dynasty Wanli box and cover,  I bought it for $510

A Kangxi tea pot. I bought it for $1160

I don't see anything wrong with these items, based on my knowledge. Of course I may be wrong.

It is funny that when I was bidding, the feeling of excitement overwhelmed precaution. If I had looked more closely, I might have avoided the vase and Song dish.

Again, I appreciate your help very much.