The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
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hello again,
could anyone tell me if this dragon phoenix past box is 19th century or qianlong periode made? There was a guy who said it is real qianlong, I asked him why but he didn't answer back. that's a bit weard is it? I have read that at the very beginning of the qianlong periode the sealmark wasn't used, it wasn't there yet. Correct me if i'm wrong. That is confusing me a little bit. Is there something in the decorations wich can tell me more about periode?
Hi Jordy,
Firstly welcome to this great forum.
Your lidded box bearing a Phoenix and dragon chasing a pearl is representative, in part, to love and harmony.
The mark on the base is indeed a Qianlong seal mark albeit poorly executed with a degree of stiffness.
Based on the enamels (reminiscent of Hong Kong/Macao decorated 1970's) , bluish-white glaze and overall poor quality, I would submit that your item is ultra-modern.
Decorative value.
Mark
I'm a bit disappointed now XD. the person I bought it from told me she had asked an expert who had said it is 19th century. On facebook there is a group specially for chinese ceramics and art. except for one person who said it was real qianlong, the rest thought also 10th century.
and sorry but it's a kaishu mark, isn't it?
Hi Jordy,
Sorry I am not on Facebook and therefore do not know these bloggers etc. I only know of one. Adrian from Malkaart.
Just my opinion. Of course I could be wrong as my main area of interest is with nephrite jade and republican period porcelain (masters only).
I am always sceptical when I see new like glaze along with what looks like thick black outlines along with sub-standard quality of detail therein. I do not like the way the detail/portrayal of dragon/Phoenix are portrayed, especially the head.
There a number of heavy-weight members who really know their porcelain (better than myself). I hope said members will respond in due course when they log in.
By the way did the seller disclose to you the name of this expert who claimed it was 19th century or other?
Mark
Hi Jordy,
Yes, the characters are written in Kaishu form and rather stiffly written and the porcelain and glaze colors appear to be done post 1950 (after Republic Period). Many of the Republic Period porcelains are superior to what you have here, so I would have to agree with Mark's assessment.
George
may I thank you very much for your explanation. I still have a kangxi wall plate at home. I am 100% convinced that this is real. I unfortunately had to repair this last night because the seller had packed and sent it completely wrong. this goes on sale, only I am curious how much value it still has.
Hi Jordy,
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I am really surprised by these so-called experts on Facebook declaring it as genuine. 🤔
In order to access your other plate you have, you will have to upload accurate descriptions and pictures here.
It goes without saying any damage is going to lower the value of your item.
You can also from time to time post pictures of items you have interest in. In order to gain a true representation of said item and further enhance your own knowledge.
Mark
This hobby is an impossible minefield to navigate for a beginner and sometimes a difficult one even for an experienced buyer. I’d recommend Peter’s video and newsletter...and choosing items from there to bid on.
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
Hi Jordy - and as with others hear, welcome to this wonderful forum ...
I’am afraid I would concur with the comments already posted regarding this piece, the execution of the decoration, enamel colour, glaze tone and writing of the mark would all indicate this piece is rather recent ...
But please don’t become discouraged, we all had to start somewhere in this amazing and wonderful field, Mark and Todd have given you some excellent advice ...
Stuart
Hi Jordy,
I agree with the other members,a late 20th c piece.
Some Facebook groups are very good,lots and lots of knowledge with many Gotheborg and ex Gotheborg members.
The best place to learn is Gotheborg.com,a small annual fee around $20 and it is a non commercial site so no buying,evaluation and quick sale.
The archive is immense and areas are divided into Minq,Qing and sub areas,famille verte,etc. Also a Japanese section.
Regards
Vic
@imperialinegems
Your not the bearer of bad news in my opinion, I'm more likely to say you are a part of my learning proces. The same for all you guys or womens. I really like this forum.
But one question about that plate, should I first post it here in a new topic, or directly in to the sellers forum?
Dear Jordy,
anybody with a very limited knowledge about Chinese ceramics will understand immediately that your box is modern.
Then either who told you that it is 19th century and who said that it is Qianlong, they knows nothing. Simply nothing, it is not matter of pictures or else.
Better to stay away from such “experts”.
But we must see realistic, and then accept the evidence that, if you thought possible that the box could be 19th century or even Qianlong, it means that you are at the beginning in this field. Being so, it is strongly recommended that you ask here opinion about your supposed Kangxi dish prior to list it as such, because you risk to have to refund the purchaser.
And a suggestion for helping you in your path through this field: why are you interested about the mark? Would you believe that after many years in this field I do not recognize many marks? If you will ask me which mark is wich, I will have to check in the book? It is the last thing to look at.
Take your box, look at the dragon, then search for 19th century and Qianlong dragons, compare them and see if they are similar. That is the right way to begin with.
Regards
Giovanni
I have been in a few of those Facebook groups, some of them are really, really clueless! As everyone here knows, I’m a beginner too, so if I think those people are clueless then imagine how bad they are! They will discuss back and forth for hours something that is clearly rubbish - all of them pretending they know something, congratulating each other and so on. If the person who sold you this posted it in just such a group, I’m not at all surprised he/she was given terrible information.
You’re better off here Jordy- people are always honest and the wealth of knowledge is staggering.
Nic
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