Dear Corey, it is not clear to me what you are meaning. It is not clear what you think about the vase at Chinadavis. Do you think that it is Yongzheng? It is an obvious copy and also quite sloppy, surely not fine, to be honest.

Giovanni

Out of curiosity: are them selling it as genuine? It would be a scandal

The painting style and quality are so different from Yongzheng and later periods. Definitly modern.

I would like to see better pictures of the second one, as it is hard to tell from that, but I agree the other two look modern.

Hello Giovanni. No, it was simply more if the overall shape of the vase and the decoration with blooming peach tree wouldn't be correct for the Yongzheng period and if the vase at Chinadavids couldn't actually then be period given the similar vases in the Ise Collection and at Sungari that is described as Yongzheng mark and period. But I have also come across a similar vase which is even closer to the one at Chinadavids and that is dated to the republic period, so I was thinking that one could also be a late Qing or republic period copy rather than a fake if not period. It can be found in this link (scroll down). Hope this make some sense.

http://www.sohu.com/a/275452776_707824?fbclid=IwAR11TuIxd6euoM0aErOLt0x48UZE7U3ImF74CXd6WGIuVVKH5YQVnskHxf4

Pictures attached are of the two vases for a side by side comparison.

@ Julia. If you click on the link with the second vase (the one from the Ise Collection) and scroll down you'll find some higher resolution close-ups of the vase. I'm pretty sure that one is authentic since it's a rather important collection. I can not say if the one from Sungari is not a fake but that is not my own impression. It was from their description I learned that the flowers are actually peach and not peony as they are described by Chinadavids. Peach also seems to be more appropriate with the leaves shape. It is very interesting however that the flowers shape resembles peony and that they are painted in different colors. I researched this and learned there is actually a horticultural variant of peach that bears peony shaped flowers in different colors, pink, purple and white, on the same tree, just like the flowers on the vases. The researcher who published the article I found is even Chinese.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Flower-colouration-of-ornamental-cvHBHA-Peach-tree-cv-HBH-bears-pigmented-and_fig8_281681695

Might even be that this horticultural variant has been appreciated by the emperors and thus they have commanted them painted on some of the finest porcelains? Fascinating thought!

Thanks, I see.  The pictures still aren't clear enough but it is the one with the most elegant shape.  I find it strange that the third one is so badly photographed.  I am assuming that the flowers extend up the neck, which would be a focal point, linking the shape to the decoration, yet that isn't shown, nor is the base.

I like the blue plaque or tray underneath the pictures of the middle vase.

Well, I've found this link with additional pictures of the vase at Sungari that also sets the decoration into a context and shows two comparable vase in museum collection. Personally I think the Sungari vase is authentic too.

http://www.sohu.com/a/242853299_100167684?fbclid=IwAR2yhFX4-RiUW-08Totyp2ZH4nuubPRiRUAqFgdbHZX5QvVeZRRnpPtQugA

The blue plaque underneath the pictures of the middle vase seems to be korean. The blue tray is a ru narcissus bassin housed in the Museum of Oriental Ceramics, Osaka. I'm not sure if it's originally from the Ise Collection though.

I really like that tray.  As for the vase, it is undoubtedly very nicely done, but I really don't know.  I don't think, assuming I had that money (haha) that I would bid because there is something about the shape of the neck that I don't find aesthetically pleasing.  

I like the one with the butterfly but I can't read the text, is that a museum piece?  That has pleasing proportions.

Well, you can use 'google translate' so you can read the text. The vase with butterflies is in Beijing Palace Museum Collection. The vase without butterflies is in Idemitsu Museum in Japan. 

If I may just get back to the vase at Chinadavids. The description is a little tricky as it doesn't clearly states if the vase is period or not. When I use google translate I get this: 

"【Name】Qingzhengzheng Pastel rich peony bile bottle   [Size] Height: 38cm Caliber: 4.5cm Bottom diameter: 11cm   [Evaluation price] 600,000-800,000   [Introduction] This device is shaped like a bile bottle, which is named after the shape of the device. Round mouth, long diameter, shoulders, belly, full and round abdomen, simple and smooth, stable and straight, and contains a story of retreat, but also increased its profound cultural significance. Because of the elegant and refined association of the biliary bottle, the moral and inspirational meaning wins the literati consensus, and is deeply sought after by the literati. The bottle is painted with rich peony patterns. The peony has been called the “King of the Most Outstanding Group” since ancient times, and it is praised as “the most famous flower in China”. The peony, which is rich in flowers and graceful, is regarded as rich, prosperous and beautiful. In the bottom of the foot, there is a double-circle six-character book in the "Da Qing dynasty system". The shape is simple and chic, and the body is round and atmospheric. This rich peony bottle combines the pursuit of ancient people's beliefs, and also has an extraordinary cultural meaning, reflecting the exquisite craftsmanship of the Qing Dynasty and its enduring cultural charm."

But I've just found a very similar vase at Bukowskis that is dated to the early 20th century, so I'm now almost certain that the vase at Chinadavids is also republic period.

https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/574/1638-a-chinese-famille-rose-vase-20th-century-with-yongzheng-six-character-mark?fbclid=IwAR3qoXeEd1IEOjysKz64LAW-iIDNlB1Gd3c83wZmfhTRqDRDjrFUESEQfv  

Dear Corey,

I continue not understanding you. I do not understand how can you think that a vase sold at a Chinese auction house could be of the period if even they do not declare that it is. Meaning that they are selling something that they do not know.

How could that be possible? I can’t imagine a way that could turn it possible. It should mean that in China is easy to find authentic Yongzheng vases (which is not true) and that the personnel of the auction house are not able to distinguish an original from a copy (which also is unlikely).

The vase is evidently a copy, please enlarge the picture and you will see with all evidence how it is sloppily painted, miles far from the originals.

Besides that, the description provided by the auction house is the typical description provided by whom sells fakes on ebay, with a long boring description about the meaning of the decoration, but never mentioning the dating.

Giovanni

How could I think a vase sold at the Chinese auction house could be of the period? Well, I don't remember exactly, but I think it was the 600,000 - 800,000 yuan estimate combined with a picture of the base that reveals a Yongzheng six-character mark. That was also the reason why I even mentioned that vase in the old thread because no specific date of the vase that first caught my interest in the same sale at the same auction that was given and I thought the estiamate was way to high for a 20th century copy. But now I'm wondering if the the high estimate actually reflect the the current value of this specific type of republic period porcelain. In the description from Chinadavids the name 'Qingzhengzheng Pastel' is mentioned. And when I translate the text from the sohu.com-site I get this: 

"New pastel porcelain - The new pastel porcelain line absorbs the nutrition of modern paintings in terms of line, color and light, and realizes the perfect combination of “porcelain” and “painting”. The pioneers of the new pastel porcelain paintings are Pan Yu and Wang Xiaotong. In the 1920s, the pastel paintings of the Republic of China were compared with the traditional pastels. In the later stage of modeling, Wang Qi, headed by Wang Qi, became the representative of the new pastel porcelain paintings."

To me it seems like 'Pastel Porcelain' is the term for a specific style of porcelain painting associated with a certain group of artists again connected to a cultural movement in the republic period of China and that would explain the high estimates. As you can see the name Wang Qi is mentioned in the text from Sohu.com and the porcelains painted by him goes pretty high on auctions these days. I haven't had the time to research the topic of republic period porcelain comprehensively and thoroughly but it would explain the high estmates in that sale. It would have been cool if one had bought the vase at Bukowskis for 8000 Swedish kroner and then sell it at auction for 800,000 yuan, wouldn't it?

Dear Corey,

sorry to be explicit, but not seeing the difference between a Republic vase of the highest quality and that mediocre painted vase is worst, IMO, than not seeing the difference between it and a Yongzheng original.

Are you perhaps looking at the pictures on the small screen of a cell phone?

Giovanni

I dom't get it. Are you saying that the one at Bukowskis is authentic while the one at Chinadavids is fake? They both appear "sloppily painted" and are nearly identical in shape size and decoration exept for color of the flowers and to lesser extent the leaves. Or am I missing something?