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Well dear all,
we had some opinions here. It seems that the general opinion was pointing toward a Kangxi attribution for this dish, until Julia pointed out the detail of the pink enamel.
Good eye Julia! I have not spotted it immediately. What I spotted immediately has been the painting style.
Then now, what is it? Is it a 19th century copy, one of the so-called Kangxi revival?
I do not think so. I am posting here some details of the dish, in a sort of crescendo.
Look at this picture. Apparently ok, except the detail of the wing. What is that? A wing depicted upside down? A bit strange. The Chinese has a typical way, like rules, of representing animals and plants. They rarely make something different.
Now look at this other bird. Again, those reversed wings, here placed on the back of the bird, which make him looking like a child’s toy. Which bird is that? It is a strange bird. Well, we could not exclude that it is a badly represented pheasant, but anyway strange.
Here comes a further bird. If before we could shut one eye and be tolerant, here the bird is really off. That bird is something different from the Chinese ones seen on porcelain. That has not been made by a Chinese hand.
Then, looking at the whole basket of flowers at the center of the dish, we can say that it too is not made by a Chinese hand. Just one detail for example, seen here below: have you ever seen the veins in peony’s leaves made that way, which makes the leaves looking like petals? I never. That is well representing an example of the simples “rules” in the way of painting on Chinese porcelain.
And now comes this horrible tiger. Horrible face! Not Chinese, with that big eye, the badly drawn jaw, and what about the nose? And the tail, then? Is it part of the backbone or has been it inserted into an anatomical part which name I won’t tell??
Look here now. Which animal is that? Not a mythical Chinese animal, not a dog, I don’t know what it is. Chinese decorators do stick to fixed parameters. They follow rules, they do not decide to insert let say a bear into a scene. And each animal is recognizable, a dog is a dog, an horse is an horse, etc.
Finally, a very important detail in judging Chinese porcelain, the back. Is that sprig Chinese? To me not, to me it has been made by an European hand.
In conclusion, I believe that it is clearly an European copy. Don’t ask me if it is Samson or what else, I know nothing in that field, but for sure it is not Chinese. Looking at it, after considering all the details shown above, the whole decoration looks not Chinese in his details. Flowers, rocks, etc. are somehow wrong.
This also means that the dish is not 19th century but 18th century instead.
Giovanni
Interesting theory, Giovanni! You might be right with that. Pictured below is a Meissen tiger (they called it yellow lion) around 1730. However I'm quite sure the plate isn't Meissen, because I have been collecting old Meissen for a while and they rather copied the Japanese style or invented chinoiseries, both look different from this place.
Birgit
Amateur though I am, I also am veering towards kangxi but I have a question:
How would you describe the pinkish colour of the creature above the basket of flowers?
I have also learnt a new word - penumbra. I gather that refers to the halo which he says isn't present however, on a colour chart I got from Gotheborg, it says that this is not necessarily present.
Julia
Julia, first time I have heard that word as well. I have seen the effect many times mostly on newer pieces and not just Chinese items. Now I know there is a word for it. Won’t I look look like the smart one when I use it in conversations.?
I could see European: the animals do look a little like those depicted on faience/maiolica. This is apparently Dutch (de Roos):
Dear Shinigami,
that Meissen’s tiger looks painted in oriental style. Did Meissen too copy oriental ware?
Dear Julia, I never heard before about that Dutch factory, De Roos. Despite the small picture of that very nice plate, the European provenance is clearly seen in the style of depicting the butterflies, and the beak of the phoenix.
To what is referred the word penumbra? In Italian, penombra is the dim light.
Giovanni
Penumbra is pretty much the same I think. In this case, I think it means where the light hits the surface adjacent to the opaque bit around the blue. Does that sound correct?
As I said, I haven't heard it used before.
Have found it. It's in the forum, so anyone who's a member can download it from the thread after logging in: http://www.gotheborg.com/discus/read.php?file=/1832/195791.html
Fantastic, thank you!
The Meissen yellow lion (tiger) is a famous design and still painted today. The tiger itself was probably copied from Chinese porcelain, however the surrounding elements are taken from Japanese kakiemon. I agree with Julia that the Ebay plate might be of Dutch origin. Here's the whole yellow lion design on a modern plate:
Birgit
Interesting post! Thank you
Clayandbrush,Julia. I see it as the rainbow like separation of the colour band being refracted around the colour by the glaze. But I am wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbra,_penumbra_and_antumbra
Maybe the penumbra is the actual opaque bit and the halo should be an antumbra?
Maybe I just won't use the word. ?
As for the creatures, when they are viewed out of the context of the plate, they do look remarkably European. What I find most interesting is the upside down wings on the birds, like they had been painted by someone who didn't understand birds. Most peculiar!
Dear Esasianart,
thank you. I am happy that you appreciated this little essay.
Dear Julia, that is exactly the reason, what I meant in starting this thread.
One should have his eye trained to what is in Chinese style and what is not. To what is, let say, Kangxi and what is, let say, Ming.
Recognizing the painting style will save a lot of time. And money!
Dear Ronm and Julia, I have not understood what is the matter here. Are you looking for the correct word for the halo, or what?
Giovanni
Dear Giovanni, just making sure I use the right word for the right thing. I am going to stick to halo. ?
The word caught my attention having never heard it before. I initially thought the valuator was referring to refracted light in the glaze giving a rainbow effect to the glaze while looking at it at a shallow angle. But as you saw Wikipedia gave the correct meaning. I looked very carefully at the pics but could find no indication of the dimming (penumbra) as defined by Wikipedia. What I have noticed is a bluish tinge in the glaze in the area of the blue dog. Just the lighting for the pics I think. But Giovanni, you are mentioning a halo, please enlighten me on what I should be looking for described as a halo.
Ron
I am not totally convinced that this plate on ebay is European; I agree some details like the upside down wing are puzzling , but if you look at C18th early European porcelain from Worcester factory in England, and Meissen, there is a mixing of Chinese , chinoiserie and Japanese elements (like the meissen item posted above). They are imitating motifs and styles , rather than producing copies of chinese originals ,
But Dutch is a possibility , I guess.
It could be very late Kangxi , when they began to use pink enamels on porcelain. And maybe it would explain the somewhat degraded skill in decorating , if they are experimenting with enamels and firing .
Here is a christies bowl , m and p for Kangxi and using the famille rose colours, but of course this is 'exceedingly rare' , and pink would be unexpected on a relatively poor quality late kangxi plate , like the ebay one.
tam
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