I've done some digging too. In my opinion the netsuke is probably 19th ct. Meiji period. Material is probably stag antler.

@julia The nut is also called Tagua and they carve cute animals from it. 

https://www.ebay.de/itm/373227666461

That is gorgeous! 😀 

Dear Jamie,

Believe me I have considered it long if it was fair for myself commenting your items, because, although I am not selling since about a year, I potentially am a seller too and it doesn’t sound fair a discussion among sellers related to their items.

At the end I decided to comment, purely as a member of the Forum, because to my eyes it was evident the intention of advertising thigs for what they are not, which is not fair.

Your last self-defending tentative is not holding water, sorry to say.

When you mentioned that your bowl has been validated by the big auction houses, I thought to myself, because I know all them very well, that if the bowl were submitted to them, they even would not take the care to answer. And now you are confirming that actually that has been their general attitude.

You are saying that you did not declare the netsuke as ivory; that is true, but the real reason, as you too said, is because it is forbidden to sell ivory on eBay. Here you said that it is ivory.

You declared that stool as being zitan. Not only it is not zitan, it is also not possible that a zitan table is made in that style. It would be much more elegant.

You didn’t say that the horses are old, that’s true; but you said that they are lacquer and hand carved, while they are molded resin, frankly of average quality. I do not think that somebody would buy them for ten dollars, if not for trying to resell them. IMO.

BTW I will avoid to comment further, because of the above-mentioned reason.

Regards,

Giovanni

No Worries Giovanni, As for the netsuke, it looks ivory to me, and smells of hair or something similar when hot pin tested. I went ahead and pulled it. I will also change the title to better describe the horse figural.

My intention is never to deceive anyone and sell something intentionally misrepresented. If I describe something as old, then I sincerely believe it to be so. Needless to say, I have been fooled before, and may be fooled again, but from everything I'm seeing the cup appears to be legit. Just out of curiosity, and because I have an insatiable desire to learn, what is it about these three particular pieces that cause alarm and make you question their veracity? I personally knew the man who owned these things. He was very educated, and he certainly believed they were real. In fact, he had a story on the buddha, said a monk gave it to him out of a cave. 

Here was Bonham's last response on the cup.

Thank you.

At that size, it would be estimated at about $1,500-2,000 at auction.  The value falls below our sales minimums for consignment for a single item.

I will get back to you about the bowl as soon as I hear from the Chinese Art specialist.

Best,

Natalie Waechter

Director, Midwest Region

Bonhams

200 East Randolph St., Suite 5100

Chicago, IL 60601

Tel: +1 773 267 3300

Mobile: + 1 312 972 2719

By appointment

International Auctioneers and Valuers – http://bonhams.com&source=gmail&ust=1609794563812000&usg=AFQjCNHP2diiFDw3nn5KZRAtIYSp8pMlw A">bonhams.com

 I don't know brother, I'm just trying to sell some items that I truly believe are old and extremely rare. I personally think these three pieces belong on the floor of the Sackler, and would love to understand why you don't and what makes you discredit them.  Sincerely, JT

Chinese Ming Dynasty Cast Bronze Gautama Buddha in Gold Gilt. 13th to 14th C. | eBay

Southern Song Dynasty Qing-bai Glazed Lotus Cup with Mounted Coin Silver Rim  | eBay

Chinese Longquan Celadon Glaze Jardinière Qing 17th/ 18th C. Qianlong monochrome | eBay

@avatar,

The netzuke could not be 19th as the read marks are done by a demeral drill that was non-existent in the Meiji period. 

The level and degree of carving finess at the bottom is inconsistent with known examples from the Meiji period and earlier. Genuine examples had more details at the base than anywhere else. This is how you can often distinguish between genuine Japanese made versus Chinese made. 

From my memory (the listing has been pulled) the grain is repeated. Being the exact same size. Not consistent with either bone or ivory. 

It is however typical of 20th century copies made for the tourist market. 

Mark 

Dear Jamie,

There is no doubt at all that the netsuke was ivory, being it completely lacking the Schreger lines. That netsuke has been perfectly described by Mark.

Sending pictures to minor branches of the big auction houses is not worth. They do not have real experts there. All what they do is to send the pictures to the real experts in London, if they think that it could be interesting. They just act as a filter.

I did not comment at all you celadon jar. It should be directly handled, but be aware that these are very well faked, plenty of fake around, and it has been bought on those years, well, chances for being genuine are slim. BTW I am not feeling confident in commenting it with certainty.

As for the small bowl, in my opinion the foot and base are off, the metal rim looks too much pristine and the glaze, besides looking of unnatural strong blue for qingbai (may be the pictures) looks pristine and the supposed wear is too much even, with the exact looking of acid threatened pieces. Keep in mind that these are excavated ware.

As for the bronze Buddha, in my opinion the gold tone is modern, the wear looks artificial (not naturally fading at the edges) the quality is low. And now that you have added the old story of the monk taking it out from the cave, well, that is a sure confirmation that it is a bogus. It is a well-known story.

Regards,

Giovanni

@ Mark Here's Meiji period netsuke carved in stag antler that compares both with the quality of the carving and you can see the material has the same lines (at the chest). You can find many authentic Meiji examples that that has the same slightly crude carving style if you search online. I don't see the indications that the signature should be made with an electrical drill you talk about. Netsuke is spelled netsuke, not netzuke by the way. You can still see the item in focus in the completed listings.

@ Jamie You can post your item at the netsuke forum. They will give you a correct dating and identification of the material. http://forums.netsuke.org/

Thanks Giovanni, I appreciate your opinion and insight. What kind of puzzles me though, is that I personally knew Dr. Massey. Why would he make up or embellish the provenance of his collection? He wasn't that kind of guy. He had some great things, several of which went to the University of Kentucky Arts Museum. The only reason I got the pieces I did is because of my relationship with him. If the pieces in his collection are fakes, a good handful of art enthusiast and dealers in the Lexington, Ky area have been deceived as well as me.

I don't know if you heard of William Tsang. He is a Chinese business man, collector, who works with The China Cultural Relics Dept. When he viewed the images of the items, he was impressed with what he saw. 

William Tseng <[email protected]>	Jan 1, 2021, 9:50 PM (3 days ago)
to me

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Thornberry,

First of all, thanks for emailing me those objects you’d like to auction off.  I find them very interesting indeed.   As usual, I always advise  collectors to see the physical objects of their interest and exam them in close range if possible before they make any purchase.  Where are these objects now?

Without knowing much detail of these objects of yours, I am wondering how did you find me?

Cheers,
William

In order to elicit such a response from him, they must look ok from the photos. This guy handles more genuine articles in a week than most people in a lifetime. At any rate, I still believe the bronze to be 500+ years old, and the jury is still out on the cup. Also, with so many conflicting opinions, is it even possible to form an accurate assessment of objects? Very Frustrating indeed!

Hi Jamie, 

Would you please contact the netsuke club and ask them about your items authenticity. 

One of us (Corey/avatar or myself) is totally wrong about this item. Forty years experience with ivory. I will put my entire reputation on the item being resin and modern!

Even in a earlier post Jamie stated he performed a test with a hot pin. It failed miserably. Did you not read this?

The image posted by avatar is clearly stag bone. You can see the calcium deposits. I see none in the example from Jamie. Also the holes showed no evidence of wear etc. The signature is drilled. You can clearly see the presence of the tell-tale sign.................. Associated with modern day carving!

A lot of so-called Meiji or earlier netsuke are being sold on the open market as genuine. Sorry I posted netzuke instead of netsuke. The later is the correct way. However back into the 70's it was often referred to as the netzuke. For reasons I don't know atm. 

This is the home page of the netsuke club. As I am using a mobile phone and not a lap top. It's difficult for me to navigate to find the past sales avatar posted mentioned. I don't know how to perform this task on a Huawei phone. 

Mark 

Mark, I believe you are correct in your assessment. Definitely modern copy with a little age/ probably made in the 80s. Although, I don't think it is plastic. Smells like shit and burnt hair when hot tested. I don't know. I paid 10.00 for the little guy and figured he was worth about 40. So, I'm not unhappy. However, it would be nice to have a genuine Edo ivory netsuke for 10.00, but realisticall

Hi Jamie, 

Please contact the society and post their response. It would be very much appreciated. 

Regards, 

Mark 

It will have to wait till tonight or tomorrow Mark. I'm on the road right now.  JT

Dear Jamie,

I went trough your Ebay page and see that you have tried to described all buy it now items reasonably to very well. I certainly see that you are at least 100% more sincere than most sellers i come across.

I also do know the pitfall of hoping you have something you in fact do not have. Such as the Southern Song style bowl. I also understand that if not sure you want to describe it as old as possible not to cut your own fingers by missing a good antique piece.

As an ebay veteran i would like to give you some advice. Just try to be conservative when not 100% sure. Build up feedback and try to find regular customers. The problem/solution is most good returning buyers on ebay do know what they are doing so they will easily find a mistake. That also goes for a piece that is underrated by the seller, so in general there is no big problem when underestimating your own item. At least when your client base is active and not scared away by over enthusiastically describing the age on piece. 

Good luck with your business and i hope it will be good and flourishing.

Best wishes

Freek