Here is another mark that seems to match perfectly from another blue and white tianquiping that also compares well with the proportions. It's amazing that Peter hasn't been able to find any examples with similar proportions.

The vase can be seen here:

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2012/09/21/25150512.html

@julia @william @johnshoe @jbeer2121 @shinigami @avatar @sharonp 

Hi all - 

Peters thoughts/comments on this vase are most interesting and, with respect to his views, I wish to point out the following ...

With the rebuilding/reestablished of the Imperial kilns by Kangxi in 1682/3, orders were placed that emulated a number of earlier Ming vessels types in shape, proportions and motif compositions. This practice continues into the Yongzheng/Qianlong periods, although the painting styles are very different. In shape and proportion the vase under discussion closely follows the early Ming originals ...

The nine three, four and five clawed dragons seen on this piece represents the Emperor teaching the Imperial prince's. This composition, as drawn on such vases, was first seen during the Yongzheng period, cited example sold at Christies in 1990 and, amongst 'billowing/layed clouds', in the Qianlong period, cited Gugong example. In Chinese, the number nine has significant cultural/mythalogical associations ...

Base on the image, the mark writting is one of the earlier Qianlong seal types, datable to 1740s/50. But, as @johnshoe rightly states, marks are the easiest things to copy and the last to look at when assessing any object, one must always evaluate/consider the 'whole' ...

Stuart 

It's amazing.

Peter wasn't able to find examples of similar known tianquiping vases or other tianquiping vases with similar proportions and foot-rings. Now we have found examples of similar known tianquiping vases with both similar proportions and foot-rings and even identically written marks and still people here are not able to see that the vase sold at the French auction is likely an authentic Qianlong mark and period example.

@avatar the waves are done in a superior way on Craig's comp, with more crispness and fluidity. The glaze around the foot looks more precise as well. The subtle differences in the line work to me suggest the two vases are very different levels of quality. Of course there are some similarities because there are supposed to be when you copy something. I'm more interested in the differences. As it has been said here many times before, with Imperial objects everything must be right, not just some of the things. You might be amazed that others don't see the similarities,  but I am amazed others aren't seeing the differences.

I think it’s also authentic but not worth the 9 million that’s just a ridiculous price to pay.

One thing is certain, there will be several more available soon in the most unlikely small towns.

After researching I think the price was very accurate given the fact that it's probably the only one of these vases on private hands and the very high prices obtained for similar shaped Qianlong vases. Also the motive with the nine dragons as interpreted by Stuart could have a meaning for its importance as an imperial treasure and thus  contribute to the value.

Also note that after the bids reached 5 million there was still ten bidders competing. It wasn't untill the bids reached 7 million that there was only two bidders left.

This is the highest price I know of paid for a similar shaped Qianlong vase - with doucai decoration.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2018/05/30/36446584.html

This one I belive is the second highest. From the Meiyintang collection.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2011/10/03/22221222.html

This one I belive is the second highest. From the Meiyintang collection.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2011/10/03/22221222.html

Sorry for the double post. Last one I know of is this one at Poly.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2019/10/17/37720607.html

I think the vase sold at the French auction is at the same level as these.

It also looks like there might be a similar case about a Qianlong tianquiping vase sold for $8,3 million in 2018 even though it wasn't thought to be mark and period.

https://en.thevalue.com/articles/nagel-iron-red-underglaze-blue-dragon-vase

Real or fake, the Tianqiuping's everyone has been sharing have been a great sight to see... a peak into the 'heavenly sphere' if I may say. The quality of workmanship that goes into decorating such a piece is really phenomenal. While I would pay someone 1/50th of the sale price to make an identical copy in a high end workshop in China to make an identical copy rather than paying millions for a "maybe authentic" piece but that's just me. 

Great post!  I've managed to find a few minutes and pondered the discussion.

I think a lot of concern over authenticity because of the the unusual foot that resembles 19th c. construction can be explained away.

For those who have never held a Tianqiuping vase of this size in your hands, you can easily underestimate the massiveness by looking only at a photo.  The globular body is about 2/3rd the height of the mouth in all directions except upwards (the neck).  An average sized person can barely wrap their arms around the circumfrence of the body.  Firing such a massive pieces with anything less than a thickly defined footrim would be catastrophic, and would likely collapse upon itself.

Additionally, since these vases in American/European hands were commonly used as umbrella or plant stands, and were placed on the floor (rather than on stands or atop tables/mantles), the distress to the foot is often far greater than other forms of vases of the period.  Consequently, they are more often than not very dirty, stained (even with iron oxide which might have more to do with water rich in iron that the bottom came in contact with), and rough.

The design and mark are well within the skills of both genuine Qianlong pieces and modern artists to copy, so I can not see how anyone could authenticate this piece on its appearance without handling it.

With regards to any dispute over authenticity among experts who have handled the piece, if the material composition of the porcelain, overall signs of traditional firing, and general wear are consistant with Qianlong porcelain, then I refer to the old adage...

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck.

HOWEVER....

I believe I made my feelings clear about the unusally high results these past few years for pieces that seem to fall short of the artistic quality of known museum examples.  Whether or not you agree with my dating of some of these 'lost treasures', one truth remains: the outcome of a sale, (what a person is willing to pay for any piece) does not determine authenticity.

Does this suggest foul play?  Not necessarily, but you can't rule it out.  Let me share a little insider knowledge that I had experienced first hand.

Having found and sold 3 imperial pieces, it is natural to believe that the quality of the piece sells itself.  But, you'd only be half right.

The other half of what sells a piece is the activity of handlers, those that work for an auction house that reach out to buyers and encourage them to bid strongly (which appears to not have been the case in this situation, but still possible), and those who represent buyers and receive commissions for successfully winning a rare item to add to their client's collection.

These two practices are generally accepted in the auction industry... not considered skulduggery, but you certainly can understand how money could motivate a buyer's handler to push their client. 

However, a third method exists where the owner of the vase sells shares to the handlers of high end bidders.  This provides further financial incentive for outlandish bidding, and regardless of the outcome of the sale, the handler recieves a percentage of the sale (even when their own client was not the high bidder).  This seems to happen at smaller venue auctions and is considered collusion, and I believe it is both illegal and unethical.

Again, I have no specific knowledge of this vase, the owner, or the sale... I found out about it like most of you when it showed up on a Google search of current sale events.

@ming1449  Stuart, do you have any close up photos of this vase that one of your associates shared with you via WeChat that you can post?  I'd be interested in seeing how the porcelain and rendering looks in some photos taken by those who had actually handled the vase.

Thanks,

Tim

@greeno107

Hi Tim -

Unfortunately I don't have any images from those who may have actually seen/handled this piece ...

All my discussions with others have been based upon the auction house images posted ... 

Stuart