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Thanks for all that, Stuart. That Palace Museum example does make me re-think my view that an 18th c example would be a little less crowded, ie decorated more in keeping with the Yongzheng one you posted. I wonder if we will ever find out.
May I ask, are you learning Chinese?
The provenance story makes me even more skeptical. It says she had never even seen the vase but her mother and grandmother both had it while she was growing up? That doesn't make sense to me. I'll stay in the undecided camp until this plays out over time because I suspect there could be more to this story as time unfolds.
I thought there were limits on moving currency out of China at the moment, perhaps no limits on previously moved currency, oh well, congrats to the person who had 9 million to risk. Probably does not care if it is genuine or not.
I have a seriously hard time believing this is Qianlong period especially the base which screams 19th century to me. Even if it is a 19th century example its still stunning. @ming1449 I find it funny the Qianlong example you show also has a dirty foot rim also 😊 . My suspicion though is that its possibly a copy made from a book like the one you showed us... a very expensive copy.
Another article on the vase; it seems the original appraiser lost his job over it.
How sad the auction house did that while even later in the article they still seem to waver on whether or not he was accurate. I suppose then when the vase is proved to be a later copy the expert will have to decide whether or not to sue for false termination. And the seller is "traumatized"? Shocked I certainly can understand, but traumatized, no.
Watched Peter talk about this vase in his latest video. His evaluation was definitely Republic. He cited similar authentic 18th examples from recent auctions that sold for far less than this piece. I was was leaning towards the money laundering theory until Julia’s article stated how the auction house had to limit the number of bidders allowed to bid on the vase. It’s beginning to sound like a case of auction mass hysteria.
The previous owner will be able to fund plenty of counseling for her ‘trauma’ over the windfall. I wonder about the trauma she is about to experience when the taxman shows up at her door.
I feel rather sorry for the auction appraiser that got fired over this event. It comes down to the art world’s total unquestioning devotion to money as the ultimate measure of value over knowledge.
I tried to watch Peter's video this morning as I thought he might mention it, but the site seemed to still have last weeks video instead of the latest one. That has happened a few times recently, I will try again.
The "traumatised" bit may be too literally translated, it may not mean quite the same as it does for us. I don't know as no-one as used it in conversation with me, but I remember when I first moved here how I was so puzzled as to why certain items were described as "important" when they were nothing terribly old or special. After a while, I worked out that it actually meant that the piece was large.
Hi Julia and all -
Most interesting to read this Guardian article, thank you very much for posting. (I can read some dynasty, reign and comadation/shop marks and some vessel shapes, in answer to your previous questions, but my lack of Chinese shames me - George, Yin Chris and others here are far more competent in such) ...
Anyone can make a mistake, if indeed it is such, so quite appalling that the auction house appraiser has been dealt with in this manner ...
One would have to have handled the QL originals, later pieces made in emulation of, the modern copies, this particular vase itself and also retained all knowledge of the differences between such, before any firm conclusion could be reach ...
Stuart
@lotusblack I am thinking there is a contingency of very wealthy collectors in this field who are simply willing to spend incredible sums on the mere possibility that something is Imperial because they'd rather buy it and then later end up being wrong than live with the idea that they could have missed the opportunity if it turns out to be right. Engaging in this type of speculation at such an astronomical price is inconceivable to people like us, but to someone with hundreds of millions or billions, it's probably just a fun game.
Great discussion, all, and such an interesting story!
I watched Peter's video again and noticed he was careful to mention "Unless someone finds a comp somewhere in a museum with that same foot-rim and that wavy glaze on the bottom...[then it's fake]." Always wise to leave the door open, even with most signs saying it's closed. The massive interest from Chinese buyers is for me reason enough to reconsider.
Stuart @ming1449 found a great comp in the Palace Museum. Seems that's the best lead so far. I went looking for online photos to see if we could see the foot better, but didn't find this vase in the PM's online photos.
I did find this different QL tianqiuping in the BJPM with a clearer shot of the bottom. You can see some imperfections, and possibly some waviness near the edges, but still inconclusive in my book. [Screenshot, as I needed to use Chinese proxy to get BJPM images to load.]
Then there's this:
It's listed on this page as being the one in the BJPM, so presumably the same one Stuart found. Unfortunately, that page has absolutely no additional information and no shot of the base.
And doubly unfortunate, at the top of that same page is a similar vase that is unlabeled.
The unlabled one does include a shot of the base:
I'll stop now, as I feel I'm only adding to the confusion! 🤨
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