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Hi Julia and all -
Attached images illustrating the drawing and elements of differing Phoenix types, from the Yuan dynasty and Ming Yongle/Xuande periods ...
Some explanations:-
The magnificent Yuan double- gourd vase, H 58.1 cm now held in the Kikusui Kogeikan Museum, Japan is exceptional in having all three phoenix types within its composition. A very good friend had kindly identified and classified these - images 1/2 ...
The three large Yuan dishes illustrates these three types again, and the variations in the elements/drawing of the tails:- image 3, Huang (female) with long, elaborate foliate forms, image 4, Feng (male) with four streamer like elements with a heavily serrated edge (Yuan examples are known with 3/4 and 5 tail elements), and image 6, Luan (male/female?) with long bifurcated tails ending in two opposing tails ...
Imperial Yongle period wares with phoenixes are very rare:- the reconstructed stem bowl, unearthed at the Imperial kiln site, Zhushan, 1984 is decorated with Huang/Feng phoenixes - images 6/7. The bowl which is, possible, decorated with Huang/Luan phoenixes is one of a pair, now held in the NPM, Taipei. These exceptional rare bowls also bases with a single phoenix amongst clouds and are considered examples of the finest Yongle period wares - images 8/9/10 ...
Imperial Xuande period wares decorated with phoenixes were produced in a large variety of forms, such as the stem cup with Huang/Feng types - images 11/12, a mallow-shaped brush washer, again with Huang/Feng types - image 13, and the oblong shape, curved sided censer with a pair of Luan type phoenixes - image 14, all three with six-character XD m/p and now held in the Gugong, Beijing ...
According to details of bird designs contained in the ‘Methods of Production’ of the Song dynasty, the difference of the ‘luan’, a phoenix-like bird, and the phoenix lies in the tails appearance. The tail of the ‘luan’ has ‘serrated edges’ whereas that of the phoenix is rendered in the form of ‘classic scrolls or seaweed-like trimmings’. However, I understand that the ‘luan’ description contained in this book is considered somewhat ‘speculative’ by many, as older texts described the ‘luan’ as an entirely different bird/creature, so this is definition is subject to further studies ...
Hope all this is of some help ...
Stuart
Thank you, great work.
Fascinating. Thank you Stuart for a well documented explanation and wonderful pictures.
Mark
Hi Stuart,
thanks a lot for your "phoenix lesson" 😀 . Very beautiful pieces.
Chris
Stuart, I haven’t been posting, have nothing to add. But I have been watching and learning. Great tutorial.
Hi Stuart,
Thank you so much for going to all this trouble! 🤗 The illustrations are great; it is really helpful to be able to see what you mean. I feel rather intrigued by the luan, now.
Julia
Hi Julia and all -
My pleasure to post/discuss -
Would have given everyone a'👍like' but still no access to on my post - and somewhat erratic/temperamental on others!!🙄🤨 ...
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
that was a very interesting thread, thanks a lot for it. I did a quick search for phoenixes in my possession and found two Kangxi and one Guangxu example, all male as it seems. Was the distinction Huang/Feng/Luan still valid in the Qing dynasty or had it lost its meaning? The blue and white Kangxi phoenixes have a thick middle feather but with just two examples it might be a coincidence. I guess later in Guangxu the original meaning was lost as the phoenix is pictured together with a dragon. Shouldn't the phoenix be a female one in this case?
Birgit
Birgit, I love the blue dish (ie second picture); it is wonderful!
Hi Julia, the decoration is called „a hundred birds courting the phoenix“, though there are only a dozen or so flying around.
Birgit
Hi Birgit -
Firstly congratulations - three very nice and interesting pieces!!
I really haven't study, in any depth, the differing phoenix types depicted during the Qing, and what motifs they were paired with?! ...
Looking at these, I think the first, drawn opposed amongst lotus, are two Luan type (the style of the three long tail element is a continuation of the type seen on my posted guan - images 2/4). The second may also be a Luan due to depiction of the tail, but could just as easily be a Feng type, due to the number of elements?! The third, rather a beautiful piece, is certainly the Feng type ...
Your questing regarding why a dragon is paired with the Feng (male) type and not the Huang (female) type is a very good one ...
Although the sex distinction between the Feng and Huang types prevailed during the Song/Yuan periods, some scholars think that by the early 15th century the court designers, and perhaps the Emperor as well, had either totally forgotten this distinction and therefor used the two types to introduce variations, the two becoming both 'female' when paired with the male dragon?! However the images posted above, of the Yongle stem bowl and the Xuande stem bowl/brush washer, would appear to clearly indicate the male/female types, and therefor there definitions, were clearly known at this time. Early 15th C Imperial blue and white pieces decorated with both types paired with a five-clawed dragon exist (although Huang examples are very rare). Another theory is that the two types may represent different grades of Imperial concubines when paired with a dragon ..?!
But at this time the Luan type is often depicted by itself (or in pairs), not with the dragon ...
Hope the above is of some help explaining all this?!
Will see if I can collate some examples of early 15th C Imperial dragon/phoenix types and post ...
Stuart
Birgit, I love the pastel palette of your bowl, the creamy green ground is beautiful and the colors of the phoenix are lovely.
Some beautiful examples posted by Birgit along with some outstanding narrative of historical matters by Stuart. Fascinating!
Sadly, unable to give a like for whatever reason this time around.
Mark
Thank you dear Stuart, it's most interesting to read about the different types of phoenix. Until now, I have to admit, I never paid real attention to the phoenixes, they were just a decorative element to me. I will surely see them with different eyes now. Also it would be nice to see more Qing examples, maybe someone can contribute from their collection.
Birgit
Hi Birgit -
Unfortunately, I can still not attached additional images to any post presently!!🤨...
I have found some other images you might like to see, so will post these on a new, but continuing ‘Phoenix 2’ thread!!🙄...
My apologies for any inconvenience caused ...
Stuart
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