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Hello all, please bare with me here but this may answer a number of questions for me and others. It's concerning this vase being sold by Joanies. Hopefully, I can show this picture here.
Peter also referenced it on his weekly video.
Questions:
1) are all those iron dots/spots (not sure of the proper term), seen especially inside and on the base, because of the inferiority of the porcelain during this period or because they came to the surface over hundreds of years... or both?
2) do all luting lines look like this (photo 10) or are some of them smoothed out inside and glazed over?
3) what are those two glaze bumps at 1 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the outside of the rim (photo 6 & 7)? Is that glaze accumulation abnormal for this period?
Thank you for your thoughts.
If I hadn't heard Peter's opinion on this, I would have considered it a bit fishy. Way too many of those irons dots and I don't think the dragons are that well done. But I'm not at all an expert on blue and white, so I'm just trying to learn more as everybody else here.
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
I don’t think it’s Kangxi or 18th century I think it’s Ming. Just my thought I’m no expert but that glaze looks Late Ming but it’s hard to tell the period from end of Ming sometimes. It has a nice lut joint. I think the price it’s at is already indicating it’s something special.
The price could be due to the "Peter effect"?
Personally, I don't like this jar. I don't feel it is well-painted enough in the sense that it doesn't seem to flow eg the dragons lack spontaneity and the waves are so level.
The dragons don't look Ming to me; they look 18th c style but if so, I might be a bit surprised to see that base. I don't know enough to make a sound judgment, however, my feeling is like Michael's: there is something odd. That would stop me bidding.
As an aside, I find those blue dots interesting, the ones in the waves. I have seen them on other pieces, but are they meant to be something or just decorative?
I don't like it either. The body has a transitional look but the dragons look strange. That it's sold by Joanies adds to my doubts.
Birgit
@centralpapotty @iluvatar
Hi all -
And with all due respect to Peter;
Having looked very closely at the images, I would concur with Michael, Julia and Birgit …
The painting style and individual motif detailing are all very strange, as is the cobalt shading …
The dragons postures is based upon/attempting to copy that seen on early Ming pieces that continues, with some alterations, into the Qing. However, certain aspects, such as the neck/leg positioning/length, and some of the detailing seen on the heads, body scales, main/elbow hair, palms and talons on individual dragons are all wrong, as are aspects of the clouds/waves …
Certainly not Ming, even late, and not Kangxi or indeed 18thC. The technical aspects, mentioned by others, coupled with the above may indicate this is a ‘pastiche’, made to deceive …
Joanies, as mentioned by Birgit, has been discussed here before, and not in the most ‘glowing’ of terms!! …
Only my opinion, base upon the images, so ‘subjective’ as always.
It would need to be seen/handled very closely to determine authenticity, or other wise …
Stuart
Well if the price is going to be a Peter effect that’s going to be one expensive fake.
I looked at this jar before Peter's video recommendations.
The jar is not Kangxi nor is it 18th Century imo.
The way that the front facing fierce dragon is portrayed is totally wrong.
The dragon scales are hideously painted and in parts are simply blobs.
The base looks like it's artificially stained.
The interior looks like possible later 19th C.
Overall very suspicious listing from a dubious seller and I also think it's going to sell for a substantial amount of money given that these are both popular and fairly rare.
Mark
Another piece from the same auction, also recommended by Peter, is the pink Peranakan vase.
Peranakan or Nyonya ware is always colorful but never garish. In this vase the blue color simply doesn't fit. It should be a soft shade. And the sgraffito of the pink background is just too much - gilding the lily, as our friend Giovanni used to say. I personally think this vase is modern.
Birgit
I'm very curious about Stuart's remark about it being a pastiche, but made to deceive. Is this because of the attempt to make the bottom/base look older as well? For the more "honorable" type of pastiche, like Kangxi imitating Ming pieces, or 19th century Kangxi Revival pieces, the patterns and painting will look (or attempt to look) like what they're trying to copy, but the base will reflect characteristics of the maker's period - is this a correct assumption?
Wow, lots of interesting thoughts since bringing this up. For the blue & white "Kangxi/Ming" piece, I guess my first question is answered because it is thought to be an imitation therefore the iron spots are not because it's 300 or so years old. To me the form looks good and the foot... possibly for Ming as Brian mentioned. However, would they accept this painting quality or were only excellent ie. Imperial artists allowed? Would someone offer their opinions on my second and third questions about luting lines and the two glaze bumps or whatever they are on the rim?
@singingkettle
Hi -
The base characteristics, as mentioned by Mark@imperialfinegems is but one aspect, others including the overall painting style, motif detailing, cobalt application and shading, multiple iron- spots to the glaze surface (especially the interior), and the interior luting line appearance/finishing ...
The dragons shown on this guan have five-claws, which implies this guan was order and produced for the Imperial Court, most probably for the Emperor. The quality control of any object, in all medium, decorated with five- clawed dragons was exceptional high and very strictly controlled ...
This object does not come anywhere near such standards ...
As for the imitation/coping of previous wares, these were firstly produced in 'veneration' of a previous Emperor, but painting styles, cobalt/enamels tones and application of, glazes, body characteristics, trimming/finishing methods ext would, naturally, reflect the present time when produced ...
One must know all the characteristics of genuine originals, those produced later in veneration of, later copies of both, and then those made to decive ...
Stuart
@ming1449 oh man, I forgot about the five claw dragon rule and didn't even look at how many this one had. I saw it on another piece that wasn't well done or old but forgot to check on this one. I guess it would have been big trouble if someone smuggled this from the kiln.
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