Hi Julia,

It may be my screen or my eyes it is very early in the morning down here but the Satsuma looks to have a problem with guiding on the top of the handle. Anyway it is far to gold for me prefer the Chinese very attractive would brighten up your day. Don't see why the should not have ducks. Found this don't know the dealer but the plate is the same as the one at the auction. He has a posh name so must be good.

Michael

https://www.galerienicolasfournery.com/collection/a-chinese-famille-rose-pseudo-tobacco-leaf-plate-qianlong-period/

Hi Julia, 

In my opinion the three tobacco leaf pieces were worth buying at £600. Looks genuine 18th century and a bargain. 

This one very similar sold at christies in 2016 for £5600.

The Satsuma is or was in my opinion a good thing to steer away at that price without further investigation. 

It was highly unusual in its style which is probably one reason why it fetched that price. The quality is average and dates to the late Meiji period or early Taisho period (1900-1926). Not sure but I think the branch or handle has been revamped by way of gold paint rather than gold gilt. It looks repaired but I am not sure. Had a further look at the incised markings. I think it's kinkozan. So that explains why it sold for so much money. Very sought after artist!

I don't think it's by the masters hand but I am not a expert. At his peak he had more than 200 artists working for him. His works varies considerably from master pieces to average and gaudy. 

I am puzzled by this piece. It's very unusual by way of its design. Would have liked to have viewed the base. Or perhaps it's too early in the morning or late at night. I have not slept yet. 😴

Mark 

Hi Julia, in my opinion it’s called pseudo tobacco leaf because of the fancyful decoration. Tobacco leaf is nothing but leaves and flowers. 

Thank you Birgit, that would fit with some of the research I did.  There is some published research on this but I couldn't find it in time.

Mark, I do have a picture of the base, don't know why I didn't add it.  Will do so now.  I agree with the dating of the satsuma and it was a very unusual shape.  As I said, I don't usually like Satsuma but this was so small as to not be over-powering and I really liked the faces. I generally dislike Satsuma faces (it is one of the things I judge the quality by) but these were all different and so much more characterful.  I was still surprised by the price, there was a fair amount of wear to the handle. But if it was Kinkozan or his workshop (if that is the right term) then that plus the unusual shape would attract more bids. 

Like you, Michael, I much preferred the 18th c Chinese pieces.  They were gorgeous and felt beautiful!  Thanks for the link, I used Nicolas Fournery's website to check out similar pieces.  I had also seen how much the Christie's one sold for.  I bid up to £440 and £600 doesn't seem that much more but I reckon the person who got them would probably have pushed it up further - and with the associated costs being so high (and pay day still 2 weeks away!), I just couldn't do it.

Thanks all for the help, everyone. 😊 

Thanks Julia for the picture. I still think it's probably kinkozan by way of design and incised mark.

Mark 

Hi Julia,

I’m not familiar with the tobacco leaf pattern, I don’t remember ever seeing it. But I really like those dishes. Very cool. I’ve never seen a piece of Satsuma like that either. Thanks for posting these, very interesting. 🙂 

Todd

You're welcome, Todd.  I hadn't heard of pseudo-tobacco leaf so I thought there may be others who would find it interesting, too.

The auctions are still going on, today.  I have just seen some lovely paintings and am very tempted but we have so many things to get rid of before we move that I daren't bring something else into the house!

As one has a Chinese vase, I will post them here.

Julia,

Wow if they are genuine 17thc Dutch there will be lots of zeros on the price tag.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I believe they are very relatively recent.  They had 3 of this artist's paintings; I think he was born in the 1950s.  

I haven't seen, yet, how they did as I lost the internet for hours today!  At least that dealt effectively with any temptation to bid! 😆 

Julia

Edit: just checked. The man's name is Raymond Campbell b. 1956.  I think the estimates were around £200 to £300.  The one with the Delft plate sold for £640 and the one with the Chinese vase for £800.  I am glad they did well; I thought they were very nicely done.

@julia

The Tobacco leaf (or pseudo-tobacco leaf) isn't something I feel I can add to with accuracy other than appreciation for it: even somewhat modern issues of Mottahedeh's vintage Tobacco Leaf pattern pieces, for instance, will auction favourably with strong results due to the obvious desirability; and the fact that they retail very well in what I've noticed.
This goes for Vista Alegre/Delft/other European examples; and without saying - Chinese antique originals should you be blessed enough to come across one in good condition.

All I know, is that they're lovely - and goodness I wish I was at that auction.
If not for that reason, then for the below.

(I'm too shy to make my own post, but it must've been at least a week now since I posted my last Bible of Japanese Ceramic Unsolicited Insights; and I hope you will forgive me dear Julia - as you are the current victim unexpected participant of this round of ramblings).

Perhaps though, it should be able to provide some insight/give you some encouragement to know even Satsuma will have examples you find appealing:

So let's take a nice long (semi-relevant) departure "JRN style" into why I say the above - with the information and some subjective insights shared below.

Abandon all hope of briefness, ye who enter here:

As for the Satsuma; well - I do agree it was indeed a stunning example: I actually think the results were about on average for the market (I noticed you prefixed it with British Pounds - Britain along with costal Europe seems to be the strongest pocket for this sub-niche in recent years, and if it was held at for instance, Bonhams in London, I think it would've seen multiples of that result with the right audience).

Strong, but far from an over-pay; and actually for the right dealer who's able to sit on it for a moment tucked quietly away, or knows a client who can't live without it (or, the savvy collector more-so if they were able to fork out the cash directly) it was an absolute bargain.

On Satsuma, in General:
Currently, it enjoys a bit of a "double status" - people love certain makers/kilns and purchase accordingly, but also some people just love it as an art form - and acquire based on quality!
Some of the best pieces; remain unmarked or unattributed, often with quality results to show for resale or purchasing price. 

Yes - there is the "star factor" of having a Yabu Meizan or Kozan; but there's also the ability to get lesser known (or completely unknown) makers/artists that you can tell the obvious workmanship and quality just by handling or viewing. 
Satsuma is, by-in-large, a wonderfully diverse group of ceramic wares in itself: and provides an excellent range of collectible pieces by any definition or desire reliant on the above factors. 

It's been mentioned that it may have been a Kinkozan studio piece: and while there are abbreviated signatures/seals he used, to me (based on the photos the auction used not exactly giving us "certainty" it looks more resemblant in enameling and impressed mark to the production work belonging to that of Taizan Yohei.

Yet what's really neat to consider: I think Mark is equally valid in saying it's possibly a Kinkozan related piece - as Taizan and Kinkozan both worked together for some time during the Meiji Era; exporting quality wares under their mutual names and workshops (and sometimes one or the other not attributed/signed).

This is where the history, is always growing, and to myself and many I know - a joy to attempt to bring out connections and references to the workmanship and production of such a unique time in Japanese ceramics.

On Satsuma, Continued:
I think too often we assume "Satsuma" is what we associate with frequently seen examples designed for mass export to the lower/lower-middle markets with the rather crude/elementary renderings of figural elements, or scenic/nature based imagery that parallels more with Dali than realism..

Though I forget who (and can try to search my notes if requested), one British writer upon visiting Kinkozan's studio for export related wares during the era of Meiji essentially said: "they must think we are barbarians out west - the hastily applied elements of a splash or two of enamel here, applied by many workers, including children, equate a crudeness in who they assume their perceptive audience to be as tasteless and callous in discern for quality." ect, ect.

The whole writeup was essentially a big ol' "burn" on western commercial interests paired with the cause and effect of "Japonisme" (loosely used), being so entirely disconnected from the realities of the actual Japanese culture and abilities capably realized at the hands of true artisans and producers.

That's because while western interests were exploiting them (ironically somewhat paralleled with the great Qing Dynasty - itself sadly being torn apart internally with civil strife and conflict at this same time in history; spearheaded in many ways due to malicious western interference), you can't help but to giggle realizing over a century later after the above was written, the idea that maybe we were the ones getting a little "hoodwinked" by these mass-exported, shoddily produced wares produced by exporters and merchants like Kinkozan:
People who "knew the market trends" in their own days, and provided both a product for the common man and collector of frugality in the lower industry, yet "exclusives" produced for the elite agents frequenting the expositions and World Fairs - and anything/everything in-between! 

Ironically, the same studio from that anecdote, produced some pieces so exceedingly fine and exemplary; even post-Japanese market collapse, whenever one hits the auction of one of the major Japanese departments with a proper artist/producing hand attributed - it will 9/10 times give any 18th or 19th century Qing non-imperial piece in the current inflated market a run for its money well into the tens of thousands, (and during the height of the Japanese market for antiques: passed well into the same range of some current higher valued Chinese pieces quite comfortably).

Know what's really neat?
These often surface at the non-top houses or on other auction sites for far less before they reach that "final destination" that puts the prices a little on the risky side unless you're quite a flush collector (and nothing wrong with that - I envy you a bit if so; but I think a lot of us love the idea of a "good bargain" obtained on our own merit, and maybe a bit of luck or fortune favouring us here and there!)

This is what's possible with Japanese now, especially Satsuma, being what myself and many dub a "collector-driven market"

If you like it, you will find it.
But, it may take a lot of time - and if it's particularly attractive, you can always bet somebody else is going to love it too: often with some proper cash to throw down for their obsession passion project. 

Ramblings, Pt. II - Continued:
Now, we know obviously the "glory years" for the Japanese market as a whole over the past decade (or two) are long removed with our current lexicon of the phrase "sustainable current investment" understandably on the surface.
I would be labeled even more of a rambling buffoon standing on a soapbox, wearing a tinfoil hat (if possibly more imaginable than now) if I said in the next handful of years your Arita pieces will reach the auction values of their Kangxi blue and white counterparts: it's not realistic in the current market. 

But if we account for economic inflation, the growth and scalability of the current arts market, new technology only in the past few years (in the past year alone looking at debuts of major auction houses with online bidding platforms realizing record results in both contemporary and antique global sales), along with the access of information available to the consumer of the middle market where the most scalable "investments" can be made: this (largely expanding daily on the internet with hubs of information available [like the bookcase here on BA - it's a treasure trove for Asian Art collectors!]) was not available during the peak of the Japanese market on the levels of success it had "pre-internet boom" coinciding with Japan's "economic miracle", which understandably the market followed. 

I mentioned the EU/UK being a strong pocket in recent years, and I think it's viable to ask: are they the "remaining few" collectors having held out, or are they a glimpse of what the future will bring to this area of the art market - maybe knowingly ahead of the rest not yet realized?

So; the question may be - what is the best investment for acquiring in the middle market, or a strong collector driven market within a niche?
Well, that's a bit of a trick question. 

A) Fight the crowd for what's being currently touted as "viable" and risk throwing your wallet out the window?
You may risk it being deemed worthless in half a decade as history repeats itself; sometimes half a year.
So you better really learn to love it for the price likely paid.

(I have a lot of Chinese pieces I know I'll never get all of my money back on after I got "bid happy" - but for many of them; I'm quite okay with that, because I really love them! 
The idea of buying those ones for investment reasons, was always secondary to truly wanting them.
Yet admittedly, I've taken a couple of "big hits" to the bankroll when I tried to part ways with others during tough times in the market like this year, that I realized I didn't love as much after the auction).

B) Well, you could look into markets of lesser immediate demand, obtaining a piece of another origin for a fraction of the price: the tradeoff being able to obtain "the best of the best" and hoping one day to "cash in" yet risking the check never arriving to you and being stuck with things you don't find yourself particularly passionate about.

C) Compromise, do "a little bit of A, and a little bit of B" but collecting quality that you love, your wallet suffers a little less for, broadens your appreciation and knowledge-bank of art; and maybe pays off later down the road if you can bare the idea of parting ways with a few items down the line.

Never stop learning about, finding new origins, forms, and mediums of art to love.
If you obtain quality: you will retain value generally, if for no other measure of such - for your own worth you place onto these items you've acquired in the past, and over the years to come!

So view it as an investment if you wish, but not the only investment (if that makes sense).

I guess the golden rule, (as cliché as it is), is collect what you like!

One of my absolute favourite pieces; is a damaged and restored (still needs a "retouch") Late Qing Famille Verte baluster jar I posted a few months back on here, that I got for a little over $100.

I actually just moved it to near my computer, because it always makes me so happy to look at!
Famille Verte is to me, one of the most beautiful enamel pallets to have ever been created; and I always loved Late Qing pieces since I started collecting because (being a frugal jerk!!) I adore the balance of having prior periods and styles depicted at a lower cost to myself, but still being able to have something produced by hand with a wonderful tributing to the original form; and also able to appreciate the history of that in-itself along with what inspired it. 

And loving Famille Verte; the seamless bridge to Kakiemon of many revival periods, styles, and origins, makes me just as pleased to stumble across when I'm able to. 

Most of us here are collectors or dealers who also collect; and we like to look for good values to obtain items that we all love - with a robust history attached to them, and one we can cherish and share with our friends (especially those inner-few who will listen to our ramblings without recommending psychiatric budgeting in-lieu of auction funds).

I think it not only validates our hobby/lifestyle to ourselves - but gives a certain pride to us as we share these stories, collect a certain period/era, or maybe form a small collection around a regarded maker we can relate with centuries later: feeling we "understand" the secrets left by them, like any other artist of any other medium.

This is why Japanese pieces like the one featured in the auction; will always have a viable collector's market in the middle levels - sustained by passionate dealers and collectors who want to "place themselves" in their pursuits of "the hunt" and enjoying the treasures that come with it.

Before the Yamanaka Qianlong Reticulated Vase shattered records at its time; Yamanaka was collecting just as many wonderful Japanese pieces of quality of their own rareness and merit. 
He loved and sold both; but the quality was always "right there" so-to-speak.
 
I don't know about everybody else - but there's no greater feeling to me, than for instance, coming out of a regional auction accessed online via the technology available direct to consumer today - with a Japanese piece labeled as "Chinese Qing Type Rouge de Fer Bowl" that gets called a fake, or overlooked by surface level bidders unable to find comps or attributable similar examples, and adding it to our shelf recognized as a masterwork by Eiraku Zengoro Hozen XI; with having bought it for 1/100th the price the MET would've bought it for during the market height privately. 
Sure, it makes us feel like the "luckiest person in the room" - but it also gives a unique bond and appreciation to our collecting; in turn showing a bit of our own personality with our range of acquirements over time. 

So, with Japanese pieces; and niches of wares like Satsuma: 
Sometimes, you get to have your cake and eat it too
You'll spend a little less, be able to acquire a wide range of styles you may have never anticipated to exist, and also if you do it right - collecting after your own eye, and sticking with quality - there will always be a viable market for it somewhere: because there's probably a collector out there who loves it just as much as you do!

Thanks for coming to my involuntary TEDTalk today.
If you stuck with it (somehow), I hope it encourages and inspires you to go out there and look! 
You'll be surprised what you come across; and how modest some of the prices to acquire something that sparks subsequent "hunts" of their own can be.

Best regards, and hope everybody is having a great week.
-JRN

If you want to see some incredible Satsuma and Cloisonné examples; the 2007 Christie's auction of the Avo Krikorian Collection, dubbed "Innovation and Inspiration of Meiji Period Design" - is likely one of the greatest ranges of offerings to browse from a single collection Japanese sale in relatively recent memory:

https://www.christies.com/the-avo-krikorian-collection-21304.aspx?saletitle=#lot_4870576

Hi JRN,

Thanks for sharing all that.  Very interesting.

I think with Satsuma, all that glitz can sometimes deceive one into thinking one has found a good piece when one hasn't - or in my case, an aversion to over-the-top gilding can put me off and I walk away. 

In this case, although I could have personally done without the handle, it did make this an unusual eye-catching piece and aroused my interest.  I couldn't help but be struck by the beautiful depictions of the figures in particular.  What a difference between that and the usual angular, bored-looking faces that stare out from run-of-the-mill pieces!

I think you may be correct with the mark, that is very much what it looks like. I shall look up other pieces as that is not a familiar name to me and I would like to be able to recognise the artist's work, again.

Thanks for your help.

Julia 

If you have the time (an afternoon or two between my post above and this), I suggest reading the auction essay headed by Mr. Krikorian in-full available within the auction lot previews; but this is a mostly redacted segment I share relating to Satsuma:

"This catalogue of my collection is dedicated to the memory of my devoted wife Seta Krikorian.

The Meiji Era (1868-1912) marks the restoration of Imperial Rule to Japan after several centuries of government by the samurai class, and the rapid modernization of the country. Between 1639 and 1854 Japan had been closed to foreign contact except through the Dutch and the Chinese in controlled trading stations at Nagasaki. During this time the best artists were sponsored by the daimyo, or feudal lords, who each governed a province. These retained artists had a guaranteed income for life, while others worked independently to provide the same kind of luxury goods for the rich merchant class. The system allowed skills to develop to a high degree, with apprenticeships for painters, potters, lacquerers, and metalworkers often extended over ten years or more thus allowing the preservation of traditional skills, and a continuity of high quality work. Then with the rapid Westernization following the Imperial Restoration the traditional way of life changed, and the artists turned their traditional skills to making objects to suit the Western market... 

...The most desired type was Satsuma ware, which makes up the major part of the ceramic section in the collection. Although Satsuma ware originated in domestic pottery made in Satsuma Province (present-day Kagoshima Prefecture) around the end of the 16th century and beginning of the 17th century, the method of decorating with brightly coloured enamels over a white or buff-coloured smooth crackled glaze ground spread to Kyoto, Ishikawa Prefecture, and elsewhere. The Kinkozan studio, which had been active over seven generations in Kyoto following the style of Nonomura Ninsei in the seventeenth century, with coloured enamels on a crackle-glazed white or buff coloured pottery body, readily adopted the Satsuma export style.

The finest Kinkozan pieces are probably those decorated by the artist Sozan, whose work is admirably exemplified by the tall vase with panels of landscapes, everyday life, and Geisha ladies (Lot 13). In Osaka Yabu Meizan (1853-1934) was particularly skilled with intricate figural paintings, often on smaller objects, using pottery blanks brought from Satsuma and Kyoto.

Miyagawa Kozan, another Imperial Artist, had moved from Kyoto to Yokohama in 1871 where he made his own form of Satsuma ware in the port convenient both for export and direct sale to the growing foreign population there. Many of his great export pieces are technically unmatched, although perhaps somewhat excessively decorative to our eye today. But his later work includes porcelain with elegant and free compositions of flowers and plants in clear and adventurous underglaze colours at which he excelled beyond all other potters. The production of porcelain had been rigidly controlled by the Saga clan for much of the Edo Period, but under the new liberal order individual potters and newly-formed companies, like the Koransha, flourished both in Saga and elsewhere. A major holder in the Koransha group was Fukagawa Eizaemon, whose family had been samurai, and whose company is still today a major manufacturer. In Kutani of Kaga Province (now Ishikawa Prefecture) studios of porcelain decorators flourished independent of the potters.

Traders like the Watano Store set up export offices in the port towns of Kobe and Yokohama, from whence the colourfully painted wares, typically of birds and flowers, and often rich in lush overglaze red and gold were sought as eagerly as Satsuma ware. Traditional potters from areas such as Seto joined the export business, making the whole range of Kutani and Satsuma type wares. From having achieved universal acclaim at Vienna in 1873 Japan continued to win awards at the international events.

Japonisme became a leading fashion in art until the 1900 Paris Exposition when Art Nouveau, which had itself been fostered by the Japanese aesthetic, was deemed superior. From then on the Japanese artists, under government encouragement, turned from the repetitive tradition designs and developed their own individual art from the seeds sown by the Art Nouveau movement.
Many of the finest works in the collection date from this period, and are of such quality as will probably never be made again.

THE AVO KRIKORIAN COLLECTION SOLD BY ORDER OF THE GENEVA DEBT COLLECTION OFFICE AND MR. AVO KRIKORIAN."

I unfortunately, can be no judge of morality or issue opinion on the exact actions that led to this: so I won't excuse or justify the result or premise of why this was resulted.

All I can do, is imagine being forced to liquidate an entire lifetime of collecting at the order of the courts for financial restitution, and trying to tell the world:
"This is what I built, this is my work, and this is what I truly love"

Litigative and morality debates aside;
I think it was the most emotional I got reading an auction essay late at night when I stumbled across it some time long ago.
You see why people passionately collect Japanese - and the stories that come with it. 

Best,
-JRN 

Also hey @julia, caught me between writing/copy-pasting novels:

Please do look up Taizan's pieces!
I am personally a lover of ceramics in general; but I'd be lying if I didn't say I have a "soft spot" for the more nature-like elements on certain pieces, especially Japanese: and Taizan has some great examples out there with beautifully rendered enamels - and figural ones that are a little less "production like", which I agree 100% with you on being something I am "hit or miss on" 

Miyagawa (Makuzu) Kozan is another popular one: some of his pieces have wonderful impressionist elements to them, and I notice you love paintings in European styles: so maybe you'll enjoy some of those works too!
He and Van Gogh have a bit of a unique crossover in inspiration/style for some works if you wish to read into that rabbit-hole. 

Keep us updated on what you find; and I really wish you luck on your search - hoping you get to stumble across more artists and makers who you find enjoyment in, I feel I find a new one every day 🙂

Stay well and be blessed,
-JRN