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What period do you make out this porcelain plate to be? Sorry about the bad photos...my phone stinks and I was in a rush taking the photos, so the photo of the underneath is blurry.
I really like the birds among the fruit tree (peach?), and the water plants in bowls along the border...really interesting. Very brushy and delicate...I was thinking it could even be late Yuan, but the pale color....i just don't know.
You can see the slip on the bottom has the typical ming 'orange peel' kind of texture. Foot is smooth as can be.
I don't know but I love the way the rose bush is painted.
I can't really say and the photos make it harder, but I can see what you mean about the colour. Hopefully Stuart will pop in and give his opinion.
This is a nice Ming Hongzhi plate with border pattern typical of those found on the Lena Shoal junk (1490).
Would that explain a possibly more muted colour? Just seen some amazing photos of the junk and its cargo on the sea bed. Interesting reading, too.
Julia, as you know, colour variation can be attributed to differences in cobalt types as well as kiln atmosphere even with pieces coming form the same firing. As far as shipwrecks go, variations depend on how they were packed, how and how they settled over time, and how they were cleaned ie. w/ battery acid. The pieces from the Lena Shoal wreck varied greatly in colour.
Of course Greeno's plate may not be from the Lena Shoal at all. Also Edmund Grundner on Gotheborg has stated that they are now making very high quality fakes of Lena plates in Indonesia right down to to the foot rim so a word of caution there too. Greeno's photos are very poor to judge from conclusively.
Here are a couple plates with this border pattern from the Lena Shoal from my hard drive:
Here is the comment about this plate style from the book 'Lost at Sea - The Strange Route of the Lena Shoal Junk'
And some further images from the same book with this border type:
Thank you! I just don't see much of this style and more often than not, I don't buy it. Many thanks!
Hi -
Agree with @kaolin this may be L15/E16th C, Hongzhi to Zhengde periods so 1488-1522 ...
Dishes with similar decoration have been recovered from the Lena Shoal, Jolo snd Sta. Cruz shipwrecks - attached images of two pieces from the Lens Shoal junk and description of such ...
Concur with @kaolin also regarding the image quality posted - rather difficult to reach any conclusions - and the fact high quality fakes of such pieces are now been produced ...
Stuart
Does anyone else see a simplicity or uniformity (or stiffness?) in the border elements of Greeno's plate that we don't see in Stuart and Kaolin's examples?
I have been staring for ages and I am just trying to learn, here, so these are just my observations and the photos of the first plate are poor.
The lotus border looks like it may have been done differently in Greeno's example. The stalks or whatever they are seem to match up as though drawn in one line, with the central element ( the bit that makes it look rather like a tied sheaf of wheat) added after or if not, the stalks were still carefully aligned above and below.
On the other two plates, it is far less organised and more chaotic as though someone were very used to painting that way. The stalks are more numerous and there are differing njmbers above and below. Clearly, that is only 2 examples and there could be other reasons why Greeno's plate differs, such as a less experienced painter, or they simply used a different style.
The other thing, the two dishes from the book both show glaze pits and I couldn't see any on Greeno's. Again, that may be fine.
I would like to see some other examples of the side decoration but I couldn't find any.
I also see that Greeno's plate has damage that suggests it has been displayed with a wire hanger? Could that be a deliberate ploy by fakers? It may just be damage.
The oveall design is wrong arranged on Greenos plate. To much spacing ,the diffrent areas do not corespond together, and seem to fall apart.
The outside decoration has been done very quickli, the blue is not carefully washed in the outherlining its just all over the place. Compare to the originals found on the shipwreck they are very bold and firm strong and designs . Greenos must be a much later copy imo
@julia Hello!
The plate is undamaged. What I believe you are seeing are the dark areas on the rim at about 11 and 2 if you think of the plate as a clock caused by some accidental brushing of cobalt on the rim. Maybe the artist got some blue on his finger and touched the rim... it does have kind of a finger print look to it.
The piece is not a shipwreck piece (as far as I can tell), but certainly shows its age with significant wear to the clear slip on the front of the plate in appropriate areas.
As for being a later copy, what I can say is the porcelain has all the qualities of Ming export porcelain and appropriate wear. If there is variation in design that suggests a later rendering, I have no argument to make since I really do not have any time on the books invested in studying Ming export ware.
But, I can say that the rendering in the center of the plate of the birds in a peach tree (I think) is really spectacular. From the examples posted in this thread, the fine rendering of the center design seems to be the unifying feature. As for the boarders in the posted examples, I see a lot of variation in the rendering.
It makes me wonder if during the Hongzhi, skilled artists were tasked with rendering center designs, then pasted the unfinished plate to apprentices to complete the boarders.
Again, many thanks for everyone taking such an interest in the plate. I'm embarrassed to say that while I like the center design, I just kind of lumped it in with being ordinary 'export quality'. Shame on me.
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