Last I knew there was no testing for Nephrite Jade,only Jadeite.

A guy I knew kindly took a few pieces of min3 to a gem lab for grading.

Vic

@zhtail,

If you are referring to a gemologist laboratory to confirm whether or not a carving is archaic or modern then unfortunately no laboratory can perform this. 

They can confirm whether or not the material is nephrite jade or jadeite jade. The later in determining whether it is treated or untreated jadeite jade. As in grade A being untreated etc. 

GIA is the number one gem identification laboratory in the world. There are numerous other labs located around the world that can do a great job.

However I must stress caution on certificates from so-called gem labs in China. Some of them are good. Most are not worth the paper they are printed on. I have seen many certified jadeite jade stating that they were Grade A untreated etc. Only thing was that they were indeed treated. I believe that it's a combination of unscrupulous dealers and or a lack of high end equipment to test jadeite jade. Often they simply perform a UV test and or Chelsea filter test. Which is normally fine for older carved jadeite but not more recent carvings that use resin/other techniques that cannot be detected by these methods. 

The only people who can confirm if a carving is indeed archaic/other are known dealers, collectors and major auction houses. The problem with this is that it's based on a subjective opinion. 

This means that opinions will differ on whether or not its genuine and or from what period. 

Mark 

Yes, I meant more on the carving than the material itself. As you said, it’s more of a subjective opinion. Is there any interest group/forum in this field?

Mark is right. The only way to confirm age is subjective based on the material, the subject matter, design and craftmanship. There are ways to identify new from old, but I caution you to have dating done by an honest knowledgeable  dealer.  I bought a piece that was identified as Han by the seller. At the time I had about 12 years of experience and everything seemed correct except the price. I took a chance and bought it. Then I took it to my mentor. He told me "I've seen this piece somewhere before." He looked at it for 3 weeks before he called me. I went to see him and he told me he'd found a small area on the piece that had signs of modern workmanship. He then identified it to me as a replica that was likely made for a museum in the 1960s when there was turmoil in China. Museums would commission exact replicas to put on display while safely storing the real pieces away from harm. I had purchased one of those replicas.

I tell you the story to emphasize that it took 3 weeks for one of the experts in the field of antique jades to identify what I had. Before he passed my friend and mentor was still telling collectors that there is no scientific method available to date jades to a period when they were worked.  If someone tells you they can date the age of workmanship, I suggest you thank them for their time and leave.

Steve C

@coolc27. It' s useful to know that museums are comissioning replicas for display.  The feeling is that these are sold off vaguely as contemporary without the buyers' necessarily knowing that it is a copy.

I know that there are professors who commission painting replicas themselves as a side job.

Just this year a professor in Maryland was found to have accepted a 60,000 bribe to verify a fake Basquiat in Florida as authentic, but no news on whether or not there is a criminal charge.

The education industry is a tainted resource.

These are fascinating. How would anyone trust anything on the market then?

Posted by: @zhtail

These are fascinating. How would anyone trust anything on the market then?

Reputable resources, research material, museum visits with verified examples for comparison, carbon dating and TL testing for antiquities, and basically lifelong learning.  It's part of the fun, but sometimes I wish I could just "go to walmart" on this stuff.

Posted by: @zhtail

These are fascinating. How would anyone trust anything on the market then?

Purchasing Archaic jades is a nightmare my friend. 

Even the big auction houses are reluctant to accept archaic jades without strong provenance. Due I believe in part to the simplicity of most, but not all, of the archaic carvings making fakes common place and difficult to distinguish by way of images. Take for instance the jade bi. Simple carving. Some of the carving I have seen that were described as archaic were very very difficult to distinguish from the real examples. 

Personally I do not buy anything before say Jin period. Especially if just by images. It's far too difficult to determine etc. And I have a degree in gemology and around 40 years experience working with jades.

It's a big problem. I know a lot of collectors who have blindly bought such jades only to discover later that they were all fakes.

Mark 

@imperialfinegems Mark, is there a general timeframe we know of when these archaic fakes began being made, or is it something that has been happening for centuries? I'm wondering for example if we can establish provenance of ownership before a particular date then would we then know it couldn't be a fake because they weren't yet making them ,etc?

Hear is a question for the smart folks. How do you tell the age of Jade (or any other mineral) for being out of the ground compared the jades billion year existence in the ground? My assumption being the ratio in ground to out of ground would be negligible. 
My thoughts are a mineral age test would be meaningless and the only way to suggest the age of a worked Jade or gemstone would be the technique used in the working of the Jade.

Ron

@johnshoe,

For many centuries copies or a better term being tribute were being made to the style and order of the period.

Provenance can only go so far. Even I may suggest that some well-known collections may have had a suspected copy mixed in. In the time frame I think you would be hard pressed to find a collection older than about 120 years.

Most fakes of archaic jades have been made I think in the last 20 years or so to feed the high prices and demand.

You may recall the jades being offered as part of the Irving collection a few years ago at christies. 

The jade pig was apparently purchased by the Irvings during a trip through Thailand in the 70's. I think Christies experts were not sure about its authenticity, hence the very low estimate. Or perhaps it was a selling strategy. 

In any case he was a well-known collector and connassiour of jades. Hence the market price. 

Mark 

@imperialfinegems Okay thanks, that's helpful. I am working to make arrangements to view a collection that might include some jades and it appears there is solid provenance that the collection was built up prior to the 1980's, so if there are archaic type jades in it it sounds doubtful they would be modern. But if I come across any possibly serious jade I will probably share it here for you all to assess before I do anything crazy, because this jade stuff is a risky business indeed. John

@johnshoe,

No problem John. Either here or private if you wish.

Happy to help.

Mark 

@johnshoe 

Dating  jade is very challenging. A few aspects are have to be considered:

1) where the jade was sourced. For example , if you can tell a piece of jade is made from Russian jade, then, you can easily tell the piece is not an old one, as Russian jade is recently discovered.

2) Surface patina. Thousand years old jade, a few years old jade  (e.g. Ming) and Hundred year old jade (e.g. Republic period ), have different surfaces. To tell the difference, a lots of jade handling experience.

3) "Carving", more correctly abrasion traces. In Qing or earlier,  hard stone powders and hand tools were used to grinding jade. Modern time, power diamond tools are used for jade grinding/carving. The traces made by modern tools are different.

4) Form, shape, etc : For example, vase is very rare in Han or earlier ( only a few known in Museums).