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Without seeing the base, I would say this has age, however, after seeing the base, i will definitely consider it as a modern copy. The dragon is neither Ming style nor Qing style.
Charles
Cj
Here is another similar item with dragon mark base, and it is from the
poly auction in Beijing, which is sold for around 700,000 RMb;
Poly auction result:
, more pics:
And it was written as a mid-Ming piece
The British Museum has similar dragon base burner. But that dragon is on the interior base.
@Peter Thank you Peter for answering me on this. This is an interesting example that brings me to close examination to all documents about the so called "Xuande Lu" (bronze incense burners of Xuande) in Chinese language.
To be short for this reply, i would like to supplement one important collection from the Palace Museum, Beijing, as follows:
http://www.dpm.org.cn/collection/bronze/232912.html?hl=铜炉
[img] 
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Notice that such a piece has a similar double dragon mark on the base, but the Palace Museum one has a mark that is leaving a ring of space while the ebay one has the mark pattern that covers the whole base. And, the ebay dragon has a funny dragon paw.
Palace Museum Collection piece, more pics:
Palace Museum example, more pics:
Hello Jiawei,
They are similar but have much different surfaces, the dragons and work, the spacing of the marks and execution also look very different. They are similar, but not of the same age in may opinion. I hadn't seen the one in the NPM before, thanks for sharing it.
Thanks for putting up a good topic, all very interesting.
Peter
Peter
@Peter You are more than welcome in this, Peter! I feel thankful towards your forum and your invitation.
Yes, this is an interesting topic, as Xuande Lu is a mysterious topic. The leading researcher in Palace Musuem, Beijing, Mr. Li Mijia (李米佳）had done some research on the collection in the palace collection from Qing court. His conclusion is that Ming bronze burners contain less tin, while Qing examples contain more tin, so the latter should more properly be called brass. Also notice that real significant brass coins appear as late as Jiajing and Wanli period, which is late Ming. He als found a bronze vase in a Tibetan Bhuddist temple that was a gift from Emeperor Xuande. It was in reddish tone, but also contains some tin, not too much though (around 10%). His ambition is to find out the regular principle in deciphering bronze burner's age, apart from authentication in terms of shape and pattern in decoration.
The main reason why late Ming intellectuals and collectors in elite strate like to appreciate such Xuande Lu is that, when buring incense with such burners and in warming up them, the surface will constanly change like fog (actually mercury in air form) comes up to the surface. This makes feel amazed and aesthetically appealling. And with minor sum of mercury, such burners are not likely to be rusted. What's more, the gilt decoration was originally done to shade the casting errors of pin holes and later become deliberate desgin.
Hello Jiawei and all,
I never trust the way to judge the age of an antique by finding a reference(s) in museums or auction houses. Modern copiers do the same thing. High quality copiers all have their origins in Museum or previous auctions. If you put the origin and high quality copy side-by-side, they may look exactly the same. I heard some copiers even use same pottery soil, same glaze, same type of color, and same way of fire as the origins to make copies. So, the only way to differ an origin and a copier is to see if they have old taste. But what is old taste? To me it is something tough to describe but can tell after you see a lot of real old ones.
Thanks
Charles
Cj
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I guess you are talking about multiple issues in one methodology. Authentication by human eyes is never perfect, we have to admit that.
“Old taste ” is a good theory, so good that it almost becomes magic and not to be talked in language.
Mr. Wang Shixiang, a great collector who recently died, also has similar saying about "wang qi" (looking at the taste or general atmosphere of a work).
But to maintain a certain decipherable method and procedure in authentication, i think we have to follow the following procedure:
1. Generalize some common traits of assured old things, either from official archaeological excavation pieces or from assured ancient documented pieces, for example from Qing court collection that were written about and even carved poems with orders from Emeperor Qianlong. But this is only a first step, and not an exhaustive and inclusive one.
2. Understand the erosion that earth or air could do to the surface of a work. This is rather complex and depends on experience.
3. Understand the craftsmanship of how a work is made. For example, how jade carving and firing of a ceramic piece is made. This is too complex to talk about generally.
4. Understand the market situation and how a fake is worked out, and what kind of different technology is involved that is impossible to have existed in the ancient times.
5. Scientific authentication, like TL test.
6. Market reception and general comments on a specific piece.
This methodology will not help you identify all pieces, but again it demystifies the so-called "tatse theory".
Again i am more familiar with ceramics, and one of the reasons is that i have touched so many excavated ceramic fragments of different kilns and periods. But i cannnot say that i am a qualified expert on authentication of quite rare pieces of unbroken and perfect condition.
Imagine, such pieces might be found among tomb goods, and sometimes the years' erosion from soil is exempt on such pieces. They are so "new"!
Best!
To take this bronze work as an example, I never intended to offer NPM pieces to demonstrate that the ebay item as shown first is old or new.
The palace museum piece is well-documented, and is at least 120 years old. And the casting and carving trace on the base tells us a lot of information to help generalize principles of craftsmanship. In this case, patina is secondary. I think, and my teachers also thought, that craftsmanship knowledge comes first, and patina comes the second. Shape and pattern design come the third. Their sequence should not be misplaced in an authentication procedure.
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