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I went hunting today and in one of my honey holes I purchased what I believe is an Imperial robe for the court. It’s for a woman I believe but not sure. Why I believe it’s for the court or official is the sleeves and the blue Imperial dragons. What do you think about this robe. There are several clues do you see them?
I am not an expert on silk robes. Especially imperial ones.
I know that yellow was reserved for the imperial family. They were made to highest quality!
Is there any wear to the neck part? I see what looks like wear to one sleeve.
However I am not sure if this is indeed a imperial robe from the late Qing period or a later one. I suspect this is a later one as the quality isn't there imo. Even where the mismatched corners is very odd. The overall colour is more of a golden yellow.
Perhaps others may know or best perhaps, to ask Peter.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Mark thanks for opinion. I’m very confident it’s Qing yes there is ware in many areas including the neck. I also believe this is not for Emperor but for a woman of the court or officials wife. The color of the robe is apricot yellow. The robe is also forbidden stitched on the selves and robe is lined with Imperial symbols. Blue dragons and gold threads. It has 8 dragons total.
I am not sure, could be late Qing. That would be exciting, but it may be more recent. Is that damask on the sleeves?
The colour is still very strong ( looks orange to me) and even but no creasing. Do you think it was framed and hung in the shade? Or have you ironed it? The design seems quite simple so probably not Imperial, but as I said, I don't know.
Not sure this will help, but it may be useful for anyone interested in robes like this:
http://elogedelart.canalblog.com/archives/2010/12/07/19809352.html
@julia it was in a frame at some point yes. It is also a winter robe not a summer as it is full of silk filler. I have had some feed back and was told that not all robes are what we see as formal. There are several categories formal, semi formal and informal. There are also articles about the sleeves and how woman in the court would work installing forbidden knots or Peking knots. My understanding is this color was used for heirs. I was also told that that the royal court could grant permission for someone to where a dragon robe.
Many of the robes were created for the emperors’ wives. The empresses were entitled to silk fabric and fur, and the dowager empress received yet more. Other wives of the emperor were given imperial robes. When not performing an official duty, members of the imperial family wore informal dresses, whose styles, colours and materials were left to the personal preferences of the wearers. When Empress Dowager Cixi took control of state affairs on behalf of her six year old son after her husband had died in 1861, in itself an unorthodox event, she wore informal robes. The result was the appearance of a large quantity of female informal dresses in the last quarter of the nineteenth century, all made from the finest materials with exquisite workmanship.
@lotusblack Nice find! I have yet to come across one of these robes in my searches, but I bet I'll get one someday. Did the seller know what it was or did you get it for a steal? I'm thinking it is good for late 19th early 20th, but my knowledge is limited. No doubt a lot of work went into it. It does feel slightly stiff compared to some others I've seen, but it's still impressive as far as I'm concerned. As for the possibility of it being more recent than that, I am wondering if these were even made past a certain point? Does anyone know the history and timeframe of when production of these would have been fazed out? Would it have ended with the end of the Qing or would they have continued to make them during the republic? John
@johnshoe I also believe it’s Guangxu period there are robes still being made. Fortunately for me many years ago I bought a lot of old Qing textiles that were for a birthday ceremony. So I can use them for a comparison. Another clue is the banding modern banding is not silk or hand done. I have already found comparable in the Beijing and Met. Either way I will be getting an expert. Oh I watched peters videos he has talked a lot about robes everything is adding up. My hard part is there is damage to the robe from ware I have to get looked at.
@johnshoe the dealer did know he is a dealer I have been working with for 20 years in antiques there also was a Chinese dealer involved the 20 year relationship gave me first choice. No it wasn’t cheap deal. But there is plenty of meat on the bone. Here are pictures of the inside for members to study.
I remember Peter saying the forbidden stitch (so fine that it was causing people to go blind) is a myth, it is just fine workmanship, comparable to our persistent urban myths today. The only other thing I remember from the video is that hanging in a sunny room will cause the silk to breakdown and begin to fray. A fascinating subject, imagine how resplendent it all must have been, makes me want to watch The Last Emperor again.
@sharonp If I ever get one of these robes I'm going to wear it into work on the following Monday. Maybe then I'll finally get the respect I rightly deserve!
Let us know what you find out Brian. My fingers are crossed!
@sharonp I don’t know the truth to the forbidden stitch but my research has indicated that the woman in the court were hired to do this and there is a few things mentioned about the stitch being done on the sleeves as a form higher importance I also read that sleeves were removed from peers that had passed are reattach to show homage. And also sleeves were removed and used as panels there is a lot about the sleeves.
I have never seen horizontal forbidden stitch until this robe. The white boarder is all horizontal
@julia thank Julia I have a real dilemma keep it or auction it. I know robes are commanding big bucks. But I also know being in American in Colorado this won’t be coming back around. If not real it will solve my dilemma but it will probably be and I will be faced with Peters Ming brush pot challenge. I have extensive knowledge in Navajo weavings as I collected and sold a lot of them over the 20 years I understand looms and the knotting none of this robe is machined I can’t even began to understand the patients necessary to do this a robe for the emperors must have taken years to complete.
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