Here is the link that didn't appear in my previous post.

https://jotarofootsteps.blogspot.com/2018/06/art-gallery-taiwan-national-palace_40.html

Quote from the interview with William Chak:

Q: What’s that white rim? Is it a white glaze?

W: The white rim is not white glaze. It was added with a colour called “glass white”. According to the traditional belief from experts, Yangcai or Falangcai are all added “glass white” underneath.

 

Q: What’s the origin of this “glass white”?

W: “Glass white” was invented after the 6th year in Yongzheng period (1728). Before that, all Falangcai used imported materials. However, they were very precious and it took 2-3 years to get them imported from Europe. So after the 6th year in Yongzheng period, the Emperor made an order to invent Falangcai domestically and “glass white” was invented at that time.

Is the white ground color on falangcai and yangcai porcelain from the Yongzheng period and later actully a kind of enamel rather than glaze?

The term "glass white is also mentioned in another article from The Value. And on two of the pictures of the ‘Quail and Longevity’ Bowl sold at Poly you can see a difference in tone of the white rim color and the white body color. Could it mean that the bowl is first covered in "glass white" (whatever that is) and then glazed?

https://en.thevalue.com/articles/yongzheng-famille-rose-quali-bowls-bonhams

Dear Corey,

Thanks for the links. Very nice to see some of the Collection of the National Museum of Denmark.  

Cheers

Michael

You're welcome, but actually none of the pictures are from the National Museum of Denmark. They are from the National Palace Museum in Taiwan and from various auctions. But there are some world class pieces scattered around in Danish institutions. There is even Song dynasty Qingliangsi ru washer in the Design Museum that had long been forgotten but recently added to the list of heirloom ru official wares. And that one is currently not on view because the museum recently refurinshed their exhibition halls. It's really shame that those pieces doesn't get the attention they deserve, especially in these days where massive numbers of Chinese tourists visit Denmark.

Dear Corey,

it is as follows.

Falangcai, practically, means “polychrome” and it started under Kangxi.

Fencai is what we in the West call “famille rose”, because it introduced, toward the end of the Kangxi period, the opaque pink enamel, including colloidal gold, and firstly imported from Europe through the Xaverian missionaries.

In order to obtain shades, the pink enamel was mixed with the “glass white” enamel.

I may be wrong, but I do not believe that there is a white enamel under the transparent glaze on those Yongzheng bowls, as said by that Chinese expert. How can he say that there is a white enamel under the glaze? How is that possible if the enamels are meant to be fired at about 850 degrees Celsius while the body and related glaze are fired at about 1350 degrees Celsius?

The bowl is so white only because of the extreme purity of the porcelain body. There is no difference between the naked foot and the glazed rest of the bowl; the difference that you see it is only due to the effect of the glaze, like that you see on the same surface in dry or wet state.

Giovanni

William Chak talks about traditional belief from experts. White glass must be a kind enamel as you say because it was invented in the 6th year of Yongzheng. Or perhaps just a coloring agent that can also be mixed into a glaze? The difference I mentioned is on the top rim, not the foot ring. You can see it on these two pictures sold at Poly. Maybe the white glass enamel is more stable and can be fired at higher temperature? Or maybe only the rim is covered in white glass enamel" I don't know. I need to read more on the subject.

 

Yongzheng Falangcai and Famille-Rose ‘Quail and Longevity’ Bowl｜Beijing Poly Auction

 

Yongzheng Falangcai and Famille-Rose ‘Quail and Longevity’ Bowl｜Beijing Poly Auction

A Yongzheng famille rose bowl sold at Poly Auction in Beijing last year carries a similar design. The two quails in front of rock work are rendered in Falangcai. The bowl can also be considered as a famille rose bowl with partial Falangcai enamel.

There is an article at the national palace museums website on the topic of falangcai, yangcai and fencei.

https://www.npm.gov.tw/exh101/yongzheng/en/ch00.html

Thanks for posting this link Corey

Posted by: Corey

William Chak talks about traditional belief from experts. White glass must be a kind enamel as you say because it was invented in the 6th year of Yongzheng. Or perhaps just a coloring agent that can also be mixed into a glaze? The difference I mentioned is on the top rim, not the foot ring. You can see it on these two pictures sold at Poly. Maybe the white glass enamel is more stable and can be fired at higher temperature? Or maybe only the rim is covered in white glass enamel" I don't know. I need to read more on the subject.

 

 

 

Yongzheng Falangcai and Famille-Rose ‘Quail and Longevity’ Bowl｜Beijing Poly Auction

 

 

 

Yongzheng Falangcai and Famille-Rose ‘Quail and Longevity’ Bowl｜Beijing Poly Auction

A Yongzheng famille rose bowl sold at Poly Auction in Beijing last year carries a similar design. The two quails in front of rock work are rendered in Falangcai. The bowl can also be considered as a famille rose bowl with partial Falangcai enamel.

Gezzz, I’m affraid I can’t see the subtle shades of white but just look at the skill and artistry of the decoration.

Dear Corey, I would be interested in knowing where you see differences in the white. Are you aware that you are looking at pictures? If you take 30 pictures of the same bowl you can have 30 different shades of white.

That is the reason why, in judging a piece, the main point to consider is the painting style, not the shade of blue and even less that of the white.

Giovanni

What? Can't you see it? The white color along the rim has a slightly more ivory toned color than the pure white color that covers the rest of the bowl. It is a very subtle difference but clearly visable to my eyes.

But anyway - it is not so important because I've done some research meanwhile and it seems that William Chak is right after all. Falangcai and yangcai are covered in white enamel not glaze. From this article in Chandaily it is stated that:

"When making famille-rose porcelain, craftsmen fired opaque glass, which is a an opaque white enamel containing arsenic, onto plain porcelain, creating patterns with Chinese painting techniques and then baking it in a kiln."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2015-01/23/content_19375896_5.htm

And on the next site in the link it is further noted that:

Dear Corey,

just for matter of saying the things as they really are, and not confused.

You are mixing different things, not well understood, sorry. It is not completely your fault, the problem is that you are taking, for references, places where things are not correctly explained, and in some cases really wrong. There are a lot of mistakes in those sites, plus a lot of things not exactly explained. And you are reading what you want to read. Just for example, in your in your latest quoting "famille rose uses an overglaze technique. It is made by drawing a scetch on the shaped clay, which is then covered with 'glassy white' (bo li bai), an opaque white enamel (lead arsenate), and painted in detail with the mixture of pigment and oil, before firing."

Here it seems that you believe that the piece is all enameled in white enamel. You are simply not taking in account the first part of the sentence, that "famille rose uses an OVERGLAZE technique. “ In that sentence, the writer is describing, although not clearly, the “bianco sopra bianco” technique.

BTW I do not want to insist, you are of course free to read and understand what you want.

Giovanni

I'm aware the inconsistency in the quote I posted but the article from Chinadaily clearly states that: "PLAIN PORCELAIN vessels were ordered from the Imperial kiln. The porcelain surface which required enameling is UNGLAZED IN BISCUIT FORM. " 

And that: "craftsmen fired opaque GLASS, which is a an opaque WHITE ENAMEL containing arsenic, onto PLAIN PORCELAIN."

The links I posted might not be the best references but it was a couple of the few resources I could find on the topic online.  There is also this book written by a British professor where it is stated that: "Due to technical limitations, ENAMEL colours were ONLY painted onto THE BISCUIT OF THE PORCELAIN brought from Jingdezhen in the Kangxi period, which made the stabelization of the enamel much easier."  And the technique is then further refined in the Yongzheng period as you can read yourself.

SO far my research indicate that "glass white" is a kind of enamel based on lead arsenate and that the white ground color on some of the variants of the famille rose palette, namely Falangcai & Yangcai, is made up of this particularly enamel called Glass White. And that is what I wanted to know.

If you are certain I have copletely misunderstood things and have drawn a wrong conclusion, the correct thing would not be to insist based on an inconstency in the writing of the quoted book, but to explain the correct understanding, at best with at least one reference to an article or a book that ideally should be written by an academic or an otherwise internationally respected expert on the topic.

Forgot to add the link again. Sorry.

https://books.google.dk/books?id=Co1MCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT92&lpg=PT92&dq=Due+to+technical+limitations,+ENAMEL+colours+were+ONLY+painted+onto+THE+BISCUIT+OF+THE+PORCELAIN+brought+from+Jingdezhen+in+the+Kangxi+period,+which+made+the+stabilization+of+the+enamel+much+easier.&source=bl&ots=5KGkZR3HSm&sig=ACfU3U2ZZ0-6xLUvU0zfva7GVsr5dF2aGg&hl=da&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiGtYrC_ZzhAhUBzKYKHYc1BAMQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Due%20to%20technical%20limitations%2C%20ENAMEL%20colours%20were%20ONLY%20painted%20onto%20THE%20BISCUIT%20OF%20THE%20PORCELAIN%20brought%20from%20Jingdezhen%20in%20the%20Kangxi%20period%2C%20which%20made%20the%20stabilization%20of%20the%20enamel%20much%20easier.&f=false