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Fake 'Yuan/early Ming tray', Lot 195, Doyle's Asian sale
Hi all -
And with every respect to Peter ...
I have just watched the preview video of Doyle's NY forthcoming Asian sale. From approxamately 7mins to 8.30 secs Peter talks about Lot 195, a blue and white porcelain try attributed to Yuan/early Ming dynasty ...
IMO, this is neither Yuan or Ming but much, much later ...
Firstly, the painting style and motif detailing is completely wrong for either. Secondly, in certain areas the cobalt application has been applied in layers, one directly on top of another, in an attempt to reproduced/simulate the effects seen on authentic pieces - look very closely at the dragons claws, for example. Thirdly, and Peter is quite correct in this, such Yuan/early Ming trays are exceptional rare. Personally I have never seen, either published or in any public/private musum/collection, any example of such that is considered/accepted as genuine ...
Whether this try was made during the very late Qing/early Republic, or rather more recently, 'to deceive' one would need to see/handle to confirm ...
I would welcome any/all comments regarding this piece ...
@ming1449 Oh my God! Never thought I'd see that tray again.
I owned and sold this tray with Lark Mason years ago. I purchased it in Lima Peru from an extremely fine estate...took a shot.
However, we had it TL tested, and came up less than 100 years old. Furthermore, several Yuan experts studied the piece... a very well made, sophisticated fake.
This is the very piece that has been the basis of my theory that artificially damage/repaired pieces are being pushed into the market.
In my opinion this tray is a clever fake.
The claws are wrong!
Whether it's Early 20th Century or just a blatant fake one would need to handle it.
WOW...@greeno107. Its amazing isn't it.
@greeno107 This is an interesting situation. I'm curious to see how everyone involved is going to handle it. For example, would you contact Doyle to inform them of what you know? If so, would Doyle change the description or pull the item? Will buyers pay good money for it anyway? I remember your Peru story from when you told it before. What a small and crazy world.
@imperialfinegems As John (@johnshoe) pointed out, I had posted the story of this tray some time back. I recall sending you a link to the iGavel sale, too...perhaps if you still have the email, you can post the link (or I can look for it).
John, what should I do? You can see the tray has had two samples removed for TL testing in two spots along the rim. I don't know if they took two samples, or one. Perhaps someone had it re-tested.
Regardless, this is NOT an old piece. Lark had several authorities on Yuan wares study it because he and I were very excited at the prospect of having discovered such an unusual tray (we first expected the tray to bring in the low six figures - even with the repaired crack).
As Stuart points out, the design and form does not exist in the Yuan, or even after - complete fiction.
At the time I bought it, I had the option to buy some 17th c. kakiemon bowls, some large Kangxi jars (too large for me to bring on the airplane), and the tray. I took a shot on the tray ... my mistake.
No unfortunately i know longer have the email/link.
I don't delete my emails (much to the dismay of AOL - LOL!)... here it is!
When discussing this tray after the TL tests showed the tray to be 20th c., the theory that we fell upon was that the tray was damaged in a fire, and restapled. The refiring would have effected the results of the TL test. The cobalt tested correctly for Yuan cobalt, so there was hope.
However, after physical inspection by several leading authorities on Yuan wares, the construction, design, and overall feel of the piece fell short...way short.
Barring a recent discovery of similar design trays that have been confirmed as genuine, this one is sadly a very beautiful fake.
The description on igavel is pretty convincing. Thanks for sharing your current perspective. I wish the reserve were lower on this. 10k seems too much to gamble, knowing what is known.
Wow! That is some story! I hope potential bidders see this thread.
Did they list the tray twice at igavel? In this article from 2019 it is described as Yuan dynasty and estimated at $70,000-90,000.
@avatar Yes, originally we (Lark and I) felt it was legit. It didn't sell. I was not interested in selling at a piece deceptively, so the 2nd listing (the one I posted) included all the information/testing we had done on the piece and I priced it without reserve with a starting bid of a few hundred dollars. I ate my loss as I had paid about $1500 for it. Such is life sometimes.
I see. It might be an idea to contact Doyle and tell them the tray is fake? Especially now when Peter has recommended it in his video ...
@avatar I’m flying up to NY n just a few minutes. I’ll likely stop by Doyle’s if time permits.
I wish you a nice trip to New York then ...
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