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Dear Forum members:
A couple of months ago I described an odd experience I had with Catawiki. The problem then was two-fold. An item I was interested in had been offered for auction on Catawiki. I tracked the real seller down. It turned out that some unidentified person had lifted the photographs of the item from the real owner's website and had opened a Catawiki seller's account. They offered the item, a Wang Hing silver presentation cup, for auction on Catawiki presumably hoping to receive a payment for an item not in their possession. When I tracked down the real owner of the goblet he told me that the goblet was on sale at his gallery for about $6,000 and that the Catawiki auction was fraudulent.
The second part of the problem was that when I sent a message to Catawiki to try to sort out what was going on, they simply did not respond. I reported all of this on a Forum thread. Peter then contacted Catawiki and they offered to add a way of messaging them on the Catawiki part of bidamount.com with a promise to Peter that anyone using that to message them would recieve a response from an Asian art expert in about eight hours of making an inquiry.
Anyway about ten days ago, I saw a couple of items that I was potentially interested in on the Catawiki section of bidamount.com. They were two blue and white vases with identical patterns up for auction separately. I think they must have originally been part of a garniture set. I then sent a simple message to Catawiki using the message section on bidamount.com asking whether if I bid on and won both vases it would be possible for them to do combined shipping since the shipping charges were high. The auction is long over and I did not bid. However, I still have had no response from Catawiki.
I have pointed out before that when one cannot get a response to a simple question of this nature the likelihood of getting a response from Catawiki when a problem occurs with a sale is low. At least with eBay one can contact them via telephone or one can contact PayPal about problems if one paid through them. My conclusion therefore is that even though Catawiki offers genuine items at often attractive prices, I just am not comfortable enough with them to make bids on any of their items now. I'm posting this so that other Forum members might know this if they are considering bidding on Catawiki items.
Regards,
Errol
Thanks Erroll,
I have been placing bids on Catawiki but I haven’t won anything yet. Out of interest, what do you think the seller of the silver cup would’ve done had you bid on and won the cup? Would he/she just disappeared with your money? Is payment made through PayPal on Catawiki? Is there any protection?
One thing that puzzles me about Catawiki - are we to assume that everything is 100% genuine because they have experts that appear on every listing? Is it safe to assume that everything has been vetted for authenticity? Is this a guarantee?
And why do some things have an expert’s estimate and others don’t?
Nic
Thanks Erroll,
I have been placing bids on Catawiki but I haven’t won anything yet. Out of interest, what do you think the seller of the silver cup would’ve done had you bid on and won the cup? Would he/she just disappeared with your money? Is payment made through PayPal on Catawiki? Is there any protection?
One thing that puzzles me about Catawiki - are we to assume that everything is 100% genuine because they have experts that appear on every listing? Is it safe to assume that everything has been vetted for authenticity? Is this a guarantee?
And why do some things have an expert’s estimate and others don’t?
Nic
Dear Nic:
I will try to answer your questions:
1. If I had bid on the silver goblet and won it (and someone did) the fraudulent seller would not have got a cent out of the "sale." The Asian art expert (Christina Ortega) told me in a later email that Catawiki's policy is that the winning bidder makes payment through a credit card. They don't accept PayPal. Catawiki then holds the funds in a type of escrow account until they have verification that the buyer has received the item. Only then, according to her email, are the funds released to the seller. Since the seller in this case did not own the goblet, he/she would not have got anything, but presumably they did not know that when they opened their Catawiki account. This arrangement seems okay, but it was disturbing that someone could be accepted as a seller on Catawiki without careful screening apparently.
2. Regarding your second question, the two people who give the estimates claim to be Asian Art experts. I think Peter has communicated with them and would be better able to answer your question. However, my general feeling is that unlike on eBay where there is no vetting of items at all, these two ladies do offer some protection. I think that the Catawiki items all seem genuine too. It was interesting that their estimate on the Wang Hing silver goblet was $800 - $1,200 and it went for about $1,200 at the pseudo-auction. However, the actual seller who is in the U.K. still has it on his website listed for about $5,000. So either their estimates were wrong or he is asking too much for the item. I am guessing that a correct price would be about $3,000 since I have a much smaller Wang Hing piece which I won on an eBay auction for about $1,000.
3. I have also been puzzled as to why only some Catawiki items have expert estimates.
I hope this is of some help.
Kind regards,
Errol
Hi Erroll,
Thanks for the information. It provides some comfort! There are many great items on Catawiki but I think one pays a premium on most. Some sell quite reasonably but then one has to ask why more people didn’t bid on it. So it’s a catch 22.
There is a Chinese Imari flask on there at the moment. The current bid is £250 but the estimate is £900-£1200 and it has a reserve. With the 9% buyer’s premium it is likely to be a hefty final price. I don’t think I’m in the £1000 per item league of collectors yet!
Nic
Dear Erroll and Nic,
the fact alone that sellers and potential buyers can't communicate is enough for avoiding Katawiki to me. That is absurd.
You have to ask to someone in Katawiki who in turn has to ask the seller if he can combine the shipping, for example? That is absurd and ridiculous.
While having the items on sale approved by someone with certain experience is of course better than ebay which allow every blatant fake to be listed as Imperial, that is not always a guarantee. Not all experts are really expert and I must say that I verify this in my only sale made at Katawiki.
Giovanni
Hi Giovanni:
I completely agree and pointed that out in the prior thread on this matter. On eBay I always correspond with the seller prior to bidding. Most of the questions are simple ones relating, for example, to dimensions of items. I usually get an answer in at most a day or so. On Catawiki, as you point out, the Catawiki people have to contact the seller when they get a question from a potential buyer, have to wait for his/her reply and then respond to the buyer. The process is so slow that the auction items about which one has questions have long been sold when a reply comes in and usually there is no reply.
I agree too about experts. It is unusual to find people who are expert in every field. However, as you point out too, I doubt that these two ladies would allow a blatant modern fake to be posted for auction on Catawiki as happens on eBay.
Regards,
Errol
I want to sell a Kangxi prunus jar on Catawiki. He told me my jar is of 19th c, not 18th. ? ? ?
This young man has no idea.
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Xin:
Certainly these people might be wrong about individual items. However, the fact that there is some preliminary screening of items is something on the plus side for Catawiki as compared with eBay which has by its policies encouraged a flourishing culture of fake Chinese items with which the market is now flooded.
Errol
They do sell fakes for sure https://auction.catawiki.com/kavels/21706637-nice-vase-with-dragon-painting-china-late-19th-century-early-20th-c
To be fair auctions like Bonhams sell fakes too https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24595/lot/80/?category=grid&length=560&page=1
Dear Thegoldentoad,
the dragon on that Gu vase has been copied by the only one dragon represented that way that has been surfaced, at least the only one that I am aware of and also according to many experts.
It was a vase of mine that I have sold years ago. Here it is, one of the most impressive Kangxi dragons!
Giovanni
Nice dragon Giovanni.
Dear Thegoldentoad,
the dragon on that Gu vase has been copied by the only one dragon represented that way that has been surfaced, at least the only one that I am aware of and also according to many experts.
It was a vase of mine that I have sold years ago. Here it is, one of the most impressive Kangxi dragons!
Giovanni
A wonderful Kangxi dragon. Very classical!
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Dear Xin,
I believe that you know very well that Kangxi dragons represented front facing like this one are extremely rare. The closest ones that I am aware of are a a big charger that is in the National Palace Museum in Taipei and the following one sold by Nagel:
http://elogedelart.canalblog.com/archives/2011/04/23/20961315.html
This yenyen vase was impressive. The coiled green dragon, if measured, was about 80 cm. The face impressive. Seriously, my grand-daughter was afraid in enter the room where the vase was on display.
Despite being seriously damaged, it did sell at one of the major auction houses.
If you google for "Kangxi famille verte dragon" for images, you will see at Elogethelart:
http://elogedelart.canalblog.com/archives/2010/06/17/18337146.html
Giovanni
I love that dragon Giovanni, yes I have seen a tonne of copies of this dragon in auction houses recently on chargers and vases. Yours is a really good example of an expressive Kangxi dragon.
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