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I think they automatically disappear because they take up too much space. It is a shame because of the relevance of the pictures to the discussions, but it probably keeps costs down.
Just by chance, I came across this on RM-auctions site (latest sale) whilst browsing after seeing Peter's video. I though I would add it here given that this thread has surfaced again. I may be wrong, but I was struck by the difference in the hands.
Strange. I thought that the links I posted would clearly document without any doubt that the item in question is not new. I must have misunderstood something.
Here is a link with the pair of identical bowls unsold at Christie's in 2017. (Christie's website only show sold items) Dated to the 18th century but with no mentioning of a mark. Are they fakes too? http://yidulive.com/auctionlist/detail.php?aid=160381&page=8&sid=1587
Not sure anyone will be able to answer you on that one Corey as those pictures are too few and poor. That in itself would make me suspicious.
Well - actually I was trying to be ironic. Of course I don't believe for one second the bowl is new. Is there really anyone except from Giovanni that still truly believe the bowl is a modern fake? In fact I believe the irony of this thread becomes almost overwhelming when I read some of the older posts like this one from Stuart posted 19/04/2019:
Dear Giovanni -
I total concur - let's see if these so called 'experts' can/will post an image of a genuine example for reference, with a similar painting style and a genuine Qinglong mark?!
I expect the silence will be deafening ......
Stuart
And then when I actually manage to find a pair of identical 18th century (unmarked?) bowls at Christie's the silence becomes just - well - deafening ......
If that is not ironic I don't know what is.
/Corey
Well thank you very much, Corey! I commented and whilst I may not be an expert, it was a fair comment. As was my earlier one about anachronistic clothing and I still stand by that, which means I have doubts which unless allayed, will remain. It is also very difficult to reawaken dead threads, especially when so much pictorial evidence supporting arguments is missing.
I don't understand what you mean by the irony, either, because that only works if you find a genuine item as described by Stuart. As I said, the pictures are rubbish, so no comparison is really possible, the bowls are unmarked - why would anyone comment, what is there to say? If these are Christie's bowls they were unsold. Maybe buyers were suspicious. I am surprised they are no longer visible and will look for myself.
Unless I find them, I have nothing further to say on this because I feel you just want to continue a fight whether you are on solid ground or not. I believe that I am not alone in that, which is why no one else has responded.
What's more, I don't like my comments referred to as part of a deafening silence!
Oh, sorry! It wasn't my intention to insult you or to continue a fight. I was just annoyed that the bowl was again declared a fake when all evidence suggest that it's not and that no one else speaks against it.
Apology accepted - thank you! 😊
Corey,I haven't been able to find the Christies Sale in which the Bowls were said to have appeared.
Are there more details available ?
Vic (natural sceptic).
Christie's - The pavilion sale - Chinese Ceramics and Works of Art - Hong Kong, 4 April 2017 -
Lot 80. Estimated at 150,000 - 250,000 HKD. They also appear in this video from THE VALUE at 0:57 in case you've missed it.
Dear Corey,
I wasn't going to answer you but I will do it, in order to prevent other members from falling into your trap.
Ever since you showed a very standard 19th century vase, trying to credit it as being an 18th century Imperial vase, you have spent a lot of efforts trying to prove my ignorance.
The same happens in this case. Who, and where, would have proven that my opinion on this cup was undoubtedly wrong? The two cups (not sold, which is itself significant) of Christies, perhaps?
Well, the fact, however, is that those very two cups you showed, have an important detail that tells us that they cannot be from the 18th century.
Which one? This time I’ll keep it myself. It is totally useless to give information to a person whose sole purpose is to rummage among the many fake items offered by improbable Chinese websites or ebay, and present here an evident fake claiming that it is authentic. For what purpose, I don't know. To win the “Best hunter of the year” award? When will you finally report here Christie’s opinion about one of your many “precious” finds?
Regards
Giovanni
I think I may know what it is. Do you mind if I suggest it? It would be helpful for me to know if I am wrong.
Julia
Yes, one glance at the jars is enough to see they are fakes and I’m sure Julia has see it too. Sometimes people don’t speak up in these threads because they don’t want to be involved in endless fruitless discussions. Maybe we should have a forum especially for Missed Opportunities 🙂
Birgit
@Julia -
Hi Julia -
Absolutely no offence intended, but I would be very careful in 'suggesting' this important detail that would enable identification between the 18th and 19th century examples on such pieces?!🤔
Unfortunately, I'am sure your aware that the copyists and fakers read such forum sites as this - so perhaps it's best to keep such details between those who know!!😉🙂
Stuart
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