I do not believe that the major auction houses sell fakes 50% of the time. That is why only an item with strong provenance or clearly identifiable can be sold through them, exceptions there. 

Another negative side effect from all those Chinese making fakes...

We cannot deny in my opinion that the experts are with these auction houses. I have heard stories of copies of exclusive items which were sold with its provenance, maybe that is true but that would mean just a few that slip through on which somebody spent years to copy. But even that I do not believe.

Coming back to the topic, I am very convinced that this bowl is not mark and period. I am very curious to know why Peter thought it is, and I hope he will join the discussion.

Kind regards

Staartmees

Yes it would be nice to see Peter  (thoughts) on this.  John

When Peter says “I’ve been outbid on a Persian bowl” he’s not referring to this enamel lidded bowl, I took it to mean that he’d just be received a notification regarding another item. The comment was an aside.

I didn’t get the impression that he was bidding on this item from the video.

Nic

Hi all -

As mentioned by Giovanni, if the person selling this piece has, in the past, already been proven to sale fakes then any item posted by such must be viewed with a large degree of caution - as he/they would appear to be Not the most trustworthy of sellers!! 

As to the priced realised, I'am sure there are very few here who would be prepared to pay so much for an object based purely on images and descriptions?! No matter how good images are, at best, subjective - there is absolutely No substitute for seeing and handling an object, especially a piece with such a high provisional bid or estimate - although, obviously, this is virtual impossible when viewing/biding via eBay!!

No auction house is infallible, even the more reputable ones can and do make errors and mistakes. These can included incorrect dating and/or catalogue descriptions , which can work in favour of those who 'know'!! However, one must question why - if the 'experts are with' such establishments - that fakes have and still do appear ... Perhaps, when this occurs, 'other games' are been played ........?!

Stuart

I think the word expert is so arbitrary, it's a complicated word when knowledge is limitless. Although, I would argue that Rosemary Scott is one. I don't think that the top three auction houses ever intend to sell reproductions for their own gain but some things slip through the net. It's damaging to them and understandable why selling with them is either strictly provenance based or in some cases, an item which is simply correct, which we can all appreciate. I completely relate to their hesitance and on their side as this field is becoming more murky by the day. Which is actually, to me, a very good thing. Imagine if everything was correct. Sorry slightly off topic!

Dear all,

there is another important point that exclude the possibility that this cup is Qianlong M&P, and it is the mark itself.

I am absolutely far for being expert on marks, I have many times repeated that I almost never look at the mark, it is really the last thing to look at. For that reason, I am not expert on them.

But for the few that I know, the four characters in double square mark is extremely rare during the Qianlong period, and reserved to Court ware.

Because of its rarity, this type of mark has been largely abused during Republic. If an item is not new and of good quality and bears this mark, it is almost certainly Republic.

Now, what is really important here is that I am not exactly referring to the mark that we see on the lidded bowl in question.

In fact, the four characters double square mark that we can rarely find on genuine imperial Qianlong ware is the “Qianlong Nian Zhi” (made during etc etc) mark that we see on the “three-tiered Beijing enamelled box” that is shown here (scroll down until finding it):

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2010/04/09/17518799.html

(BTW look also at the great difference in painting quality, which is astonishing).

Instead, the mark on the lidded bowl is "Qianlong Yu Zhi" (by Imperial Command of the Qianlong Emperor), which was not used during the Qianlong period. It is only seen on Republic or later ware.

Best regards

Giovanni

In reply to above - auction specialists are employed to get items into the auction house to be auctioned.    To catalogue them, and to repeat the process.

Experts in a given field are employed by Museums as curators, Universities, etc.    

Some of these experts consult to the major private collectors.    I know one or two for example that get picked up by private jet on the owners way to the auction preview, or fair, to provide guidance on potential purchases.

Sometimes auction houses will seek the opinion of an expert on a given subject.

Its an error to think of auction staff as experts in the items on auction.

There are all sorts of things going on behind the scenes at auctions.    From money laundering, to creating provenance for fakes, to buying rings etc etc.     As someone who has been buying and selling at auctions internationally for the last 25 years, I think I've seen most of it.

From the Rhino horn purchased  for just under $200,000 that was paid for with a suitcase full of $20 bills.     Instead of saying no, the auction house went out and bought a new cash counting machine!    To the dealers that get together prior to the auction, and agree not to bid against each other on a series of items (ie one of them will buy a given item, and between them they'll end up with the pieces they want), and then hold their own private auction afterwards where the real prices are set, and the difference is evenly distributed between the ring.   

Successful dealers become expert in their area through education, trial and error.    They are using their money, so they learn not to make mistakes, or they don't last.   

If you think major auction houses do not knowingly have suspect Chinese porcelain on offer, then chances are, you may own some.

Much of the "suspect" stuff I see at auction, has a strong reserve, and a single buyer who is there to buy it.    If it gets paid for with cash, its likely money laundering and provenance developing.   If it gets paid for with a Credit card on a Chinese bank, then its a means of getting money out of China (getting around their low legal limit), and a means of creating provenance.   With internet bidding, this process has become even easier for those so inclined.

All of which brings us back to the present item.

If I walked into an auction house and saw this item with a $20,000 - $25,000 estimate, it would scream scam of one kind or another.   If it were an auction house where I'm well known, and I asked about it, chances are I'd be told the consignor insisted on the estimate, and is sure it will sell.    Which is code for - leave that one alone.     If the auction house nets 30% (buyer and seller commissions), that's an incentive of almost $6000 for the auction house to include it.    And whats the downside to the auction house?    No expert is going to buy it!    The person who comes to buy it, won't cause any problems.    In fact, its less risk to the auction house than selling the real thing.

On a related note, when was the last time you saw a grooved foot rim on a Kangxi plate lol (183757363332)?

of course auction houses will seek the opinion of a museum or a specialist in a certain field. That is actually very good to do, to certain the authenticity of an item, and get consensus on authenticity. That is called being a professional actually. 

I am quite sure that most of what you say is actually untrue. First of all, it would ruin their business. Secondly, there are all sorts of laws, regulations, audits and so on that make money laundry in this field near to impossible. Think of SOX for example, the rule to report cash payments over a certain amount and so on. 

These kind of allegations without any proof are dangerous to me. Sorry, I do not think this is correct.

Kind regards

Staartmees.

Giovanni, that is beautifully painted and reminds me of something else that I found disturbing on the lidded pot: the flowers.  18th century flowers are usually wonderful: softly coloured and well-detailed.  The ones on that pot are nothing like that!

Dear Julia,

you are right and were right too in pointing out the whole stiffness of the scene.

In particular, the scene with the lady holding the boy is very poor.

If you look at the picture where I have shown a direct comparison between Bonhams piece and this one, it seems that the scene is representing a group of 18^th C. people watching Cinderella cartoon on TV.

Anyway the type of mark, as pointed out in my previous post, is conclusive.

Probably Peter classified this bowl as Imperial because of the four characters double square mark, but did not pay attention to the particular type of it, that is not present during Qianlong.

Best regards

Giovanni

PS: Dear Avionsunantiques (sorry, no signature), what is that number, an ebay item? I did try it but it doesn’t work.

If you would like to discuss another item, it should be better to start a separate thread I think.

Giovanni

Dear Giovanni -

Stunning example of such wares - on only has to look at this to see the vast difference in quality between the two objects!!

I would also concur regarding the rarity of the four character 'Qinglong Nian Zhi mark within a double square, which was exclusively reserved for Imperial wares, and is itself a continuation of those found on Kangxi/Yongzheng Imperial pieces. 

Stuart 

Posted by: staartmees

of course auction houses will seek the opinion of a museum or a specialist in a certain field. That is actually very good to do, to certain the authenticity of an item, and get consensus on authenticity. That is called being a professional actually. 

I am quite sure that most of what you say is actually untrue. First of all, it would ruin their business. Secondly, there are all sorts of laws, regulations, audits and so on that make money laundry in this field near to impossible. Think of SOX for example, the rule to report cash payments over a certain amount and so on. 

These kind of allegations without any proof are dangerous to me. Sorry, I do not think this is correct.

Kind regards

Staartmees.

Dear Staartmees,

I think that most people don't realise what is really going on behind the scenes of this business. I don't pretend to know something, I follow my instinct and in case of top auction houses that are selling the most iconic items in this world, I say - they cheat as hell. It's better business for any types of tricks than casino is in my opinion. They can do magic, and they do. Why? Just because there is an opportunity - like with Mount Everest, people are climbing it, because it's there.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/arts/design/has-the-art-market-become-an-unwitting-partner-in-crime.html

I am sorry but in terms of human nature it is wise to be sceptical rather than naive.

All the best,

Adrian

Dear Stuart,

to be precise, because I am not sure if it is clear. You said that an authentic "Qianlong Nian Zhi" mark is rare, and that is true, but the problem with the enamelled bowl in object here is that it is bearing the "Qianlong Yu Zhi" mark, which simply is never found on an authentic Qianlong object.

Giovanni

Dear Avionsunantiques -

It would appear we have both witness 'similar practices' within the auction house world over the decades!! 

I would concur that most have there 'specialists' - either associated with or brought in - who they either consult and/or write the catalogue entries for specific objects, usually the rarer/high estimate estimate pieces. These specialist are well know and very knowledgeable ...

But 'suspect' objects still appear with some regularity, and some fetching 'interesting' prices, as we have seen - there are, always, 'games been played' ...

Stuart  

Dear Giovanni -

Indeed - I to have never seen this 'Qinglong Yu Zhi' mark, as seen on this enamelled bowl/cover, on any authentic Qinglong object, it simply is not found!!  '

AS I'am sure you know, four character marks ending 'Yu Zhi' - by 'Imperial Command' - are only ever seen on late Kangxi/Yongzheng period objects, usually of the highest quality, either written in overglaze pink enamel or underglazed or overglazed blue.

Stuart