Hi Nic,

I think they are recent. They have a shape between jar and bottle, function unclear, bad sign. The glaze and painting are also very bad. You shall sell both.  ? 

Xin

Hi Xin,

That’s very disappointing if true because I purchased them off the Bidamount marketplace Buy It Now list. 

The seller was Chine-de-commande.

I was hoping that in buying this way, whilst not 100% safe every time, would’ve been as sure as sure can be? I didn’t buy them immediately, they were there for several weeks before I bought them but were not removed.

Selling them both, if they are modern, is not really a viable option. I only bought the a couple of weeks ago and I bought them as 19th century with Kangxi marks. If they are modern then they are worthless?

If the general consensus is that these are indeed modern fakes then I will petition the seller for a refund and contact Peter so that he is aware of the mistake.

I greatly respect your opinion Xin but, of course, I have to ask (Before I open a can of worms and maybe offend the seller) Are we 100% sure?

Nic

I'm sorry, Nic, I agree with Xin.  I am not sure of the age but I dount very much that they are 19th c.  I feel that the foot and choice/depiction of the mark are wrong and the painting is very bad.

Also, I cannot see these used as a jar: they would have a wider neck which most likely would be unglazed.  To be used as a bottle, they would be hard to lift and pour.  Not very practical either way. 

Obviously, you need to take the word of those who know better than me (like Xin) but for what it is worth, that is my opinion.

Best wishes,

Julia

Hi Julia,

Thanks for that, every opinion helps build an overall picture. 

I want you and Xin to know that in asking people for their certainty in this, I am not doubting the opinions, merely ensuring that I have understood the level of doubt. In making a ‘complaint’, one has to be sure as sure can be. It is no good contacting the seller and stating that it ‘probably’ isn’t 19th century or ‘might’ not be 19th century?

If the opinion is that these are ‘definitely’ not or ‘cannot be’ 19th century then I have no problem contacting the seller. Of course, I would not name anyone here, but it will give me the confidence to state my case firmly.

My only recourse is that these were sold with the assurance that they are 19th century. There was no ambiguity in the listing. Had the listing stated ‘likely’ or ‘possibly’ 19th century then, of course, there would be no recourse. But that isn’t the case.

As I said, I do not want to offend the seller or make a fool of myself, so I need to know with as absolute a certainty as it is possible to have from studying photos alone.

Nic

I completely agree, Nic.  I would feel the same.  It is harder not seeing them in real life, so your opinion of them is important.  Do you feel they might be 19th c?

I think for me, the thing is the question of what they are.  The quality is not good, but that does not prevent them having age.  However, I would question whether they would have been made then for decorative purposes, partly because of that and partly because that mark is so irreverently done.  Also, I feel the boys have been painted by someone who has seen cartoons of super heroes, I feel that it would not look out of place to have Zap - Bang - Pow written on the jars. ? 

That leaves them having been produced for a practical reason and I can't see what that might be - unless these are also holders for incense sticks?  

Anyway, these are just my feelings/opinions and I could so easily be wrong in which case, I hope I haven't caused any offence to anyone!

Hi Julia,

I’m not offended at all. In fact, I’m incredibly grateful to both you and Xin. 

I assumed they are snuff bottles or tea caddies?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F192383640738

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F123374999602

Both these are also on the Bidamount BIT page. Ican see now the difference in the neck, but surely such a glaringly obvious feature would’ve alerted Bidamount? I don’t know? Being a novice, I felt I had taken every precaution and followed the advice I’d been given. And still, here I am! Out a few hundred pounds!

Nic 

How big are they?  I was assuming they were bigger than a snuff bottle.  That might make a difference. Can you make a photo of them side by side with something like an apple next to them so that we can get the perspective, please?  

Julia

Of course, they are 8cm tall, from base to very top of spout

The apple is small!

?Oh my goodness! I thought they were much bigger!   ? I should have looked them up on Ebay.

Anyway, thank you.   They do look much better in a small size and yes, maybe they are snuff bottles.  I am not convinced about the age, though.  I can see the faces compare better with the boy jar you have posted but the overall design disturbs me, compared to the order and natural flow of the drawing on the ebay one.  Yours is also a lot shinier.  I really would not like to say these are definitely 19th c but I am less certain, than I was, that they are not.  

Maybe Xin can have another look, or possibly someone else will come along. ? 

Sorry, I didn’t think to add the size in the original posting because I wasn’t asking for an authentication! ?

I can see what Xin means by the difference in the spout. Indeed, the many differences pointed out here seem abundantly clear... now.

But the ones I bought sat happily next to the other 100 boys jarlet for a week or two on the Bidamount Buy It Now page without any raising suspicions. 

I am incredibly confused!

Hi Nic,

That is disappointing, to hear doubts to the authenticity. But keep in mind, Xin often simply states a fact, that something is modern, when he has no doubt. Here, he says, “I think”. It may be a case in which it cannot be determined, without handling them directly. And, if this were the case, you could sell them, with a truthful description...that you don’t know the age. So...hopefully not worthless then. Just my two sense, hate to see this. Todd

Hi Todd,

I think when one takes a chance on something one is aware it could go horribly wrong.

I think this is more of a shock because I thought I’d done everything properly! But for me to have chosen the one dud from the 100 or so items on Bidamount’s Buy it Now seems incomprehensible!

I never get that kind of ‘luck’ when I play the lottery! ???

I find these confusing , especially when comparing them with the two jars linked from ebay (inc. one from the same seller). To me the three hundred boys jars look recent (yours and the other one) whereas the better painted one looks old. Even though the ebay jar has a silver mount, that could have been added recently too. The quality of all three ( boys) jars is poor, but as Julia says that does not mean they might not be old. 

The mark on yours is compressed (because of the size) - would they have used a six character mark on such a small item in the C19th ? - possibly . But the foot looks wrong , and the glaze and body on your two shows no wear or signs of age ; and if they are jars then you would expect to see an unglazed mouth/neck.(as has been mentioned)

But it is impossible to be certain from photos . I would contact the seller and ask why he/she thinks they are C19th , and say you have had opinions doubting their authenticity - there is no harm , and such a prominent seller on ebay should not mind. I would hold off from saying these are fakes. 

Bear in mind that Peter tends to lists sellers in the BIN listings , not just items, so he has not sifted all the items from a particular seller, if that seller is known for selling genuine stuff, so sometimes dubious items might slip through. 

As always, hindsight is perfect, but it would seem a good idea to ask for advice here before you buy - as you say , things from chine-de-commande are probably on ebay for weeks or longer before selling so there is little chance of being beaten to the bid. On a side-note I find these sellers who have lots of items for sale often over-price their items , and even a discounted offer means you might still pay too much . Just my thoughts. 

Nic,

Haha, yes, that does seem an unlikely bit of bad luck.

But Tam makes excellent points. And if the seller is reputable, and that seems to be the case, the last thing they would want to do is sell something that may not be as advertised. Especially something like this, in which the debate becomes public. I would not be at all surprised if a return was immediately accepted, or even offered by the seller without prompting, upon hearing of the doubts. You may have to pay the shipping, that would be normal for a return. Hopefully things will work out.