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Wucai vase with elephant and horse kangxi style 1910 ?
this is at Auction in Switzerland acc to the seller it whas bought 1970 in hong kong
with a writen record see below .
hes asking 75 Dollars ... its a nice piece apart from the elephants feet.
What do People of this forum think
Height: ca. 35 cm
Diameter above: ca. 12 cm
Center diameter: ca. 25.5 cm
Diameter below: ca. 14 cm
Weight: 3.75 kg
Condition antique, second hand.
no flaws were found.
marked in the bottom with the blue double ring.
Thank you in advance Martin
This vase is OK only if you really like it. It's probably just worth what he is trying to get for it.
It's my submission that it's not 1910 but more like the previous owner bought it new or close to it.
The lip and inside have been mechanically rendered. This is very common after about mid century.
Personally I would leave this!
@imperialfinegems Hey Mark, what tips you off to the inside being mechanically rendered? I would like to be able to tell the difference but I don't know what to look for. Any info would be greatly appreciated! Cheers! John
Prior to about the mid-century potters had to remove the clay from inside the vase by hand. This would leave the inside slightly rippled and on occasion you would see the outline of where the fingers were. It's not definitive or set in stone so to speak but is a good indicator of whether it's old or perhaps post 60's or so. It shouldn't be the only means to identify later examples. The lack of soft flaws, paste, stiffness, decoration that goes nowhere and finally items that look like they have been painted in a hurry.
Later examples used machinery that was able to scoop out the clay leaving it very smooth.
The example shown looks to me (in addition to other things obviously) to be removed by machine.
It's important when looking at vases that you carefully look inside. Not just the lip but all the way down (small torch). Even better if your able to feel it yourself.
Of course fakers know this and try to imitate the old ways through various designs including grit. However after awhile it should be easy to spot after some trial and error. This applies to mass production and not say one offs. One offs are not applicable because the potter is unlikely to have the required machinery. Hence he has to remove the inside clay by hand.
This is an example of what the inside lip of a vase circa 19th/20th century should look like. See the rippled effect. Now compare the two.
Even better if you know a potter. He can explain it or show you the difference.
Hope this introduction helps you.
In addition when you look at this vase it's all wrong.
Just to point out a few things. The border at the top is all wrong. No detail. Look at the ways the rocks are done. Very quickly with no style.
This what it should look like
What's going on here? What does this mean?
Is this right? Never seen an elephant with toes like that before!
What is this representing? Rocks, water or what!
@imperialfinegems Thanks so much, Mark, that explains it very well. I feel like I have just learned something very useful. And I have just run around the house looking at all my vases to see. A couple have surprised me. One I hoped was older than it is and another I had thought was newer than it turns out to be. One question though: is Dehua an exception to this? I have a dehua blanc de chine vase that was dated to early 20th C and I do not see the ridges in that one.
If I'm not mistaken, I've seen this same design of mountains and caravels in pieces from Hong Kong. I particularly like the decoration, the elephant and the horse have their charm, a curious design! even the set of rocks, banana trees and pine ... I think the weak point of the piece, in my opinion, is this outline in the pattern at the base of the neck that seems very "artificial", but I can't add much beyond that.
Sorry I don't deal with dehua porcelain.
When examining vases it's not just the top you have to take into consideration but the whole inside. That's why you need a pen torch.
Some high quality republican period vases (Wang Dafan and Wang Qi for example) have no evidence of finger or rippled effect to the naked eye. How they managed that I am still trying to find out. As I pointed out before its not a set in stone rule. There are exceptions like imperial by order wares. They would have to be perfectly made.
But for the normal average porcelain vase I believe what I have posted applies. This taken of course with the overall look and style of the item in question. Like the example posted earlier.
For me at this moment it's still research in progress like determining gas fired versus wood fired porcelain and how to tell the difference.
I agree with Mark's estimation, it is very heavy, too, so shipping will be expensive I would have thought?
The only thing I would like to add is that I couldn't believe the elephant's feet so tried to find another one. They do appear to have been given funny feet, this is from Alan Truong:
Thank you Mark ,Julia MB & Johnshoe for youre feedbacks i have learned a lot ...worked out to be a good Idea to let an Elephant into the Porcellaine Forum 😉
@julia i did also search for Elephant feet and also found the image on the Vase above with this white Elephant.
They dont seem to master Elephant feet , maybee they havent even seen Elephants in there lifetime .
about the feet
one more sample the figurine is fom the 1960s (source catawiki)
best regards martin
Yes that saggy baggy elephant and it's turned up toes and the horse with the very long tail whoever made this vase must of been copying from a very old source I have seen elephants depicted like that on very early paintings, carvings etc. Peter often points out such Elephants in his video's.
@imperialfinegems Thanks for that info. Would you be able to share a link to a pen torch you would recommend? I am not aware familiar with them and it seems that there are different types. Also, how would one be properly used?
Any type of small torch will surfice. They take I think 2x AAA batteries. Any hardware shop should stock them. It does not matter which brand you buy. As long as the light is reasonably strong/bright. Here in Australia they range from about $5-$15.
You simply shine it into your item at the lip. You then should be able to see the interior.
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