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Wucai Square bowl, ...
 
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Wucai Square bowl, immortal, wanli?

 
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Jg1133
 Jg1133
(@jg1133)
Prominent Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 325
01/08/2022 9:51 pm  
Posted by: @imperialfinegems

I agree with @shine.

The mark is done very oddly and with two squares.

Also of interest are the two horns on the dragon.

Front facing dragons are very popular atm. Hence the market place is flooded with copies.

My personal feeling is that it's either a Japanese example from the late 19th century or its a chinese modern copy.

I dont like the way the dragon is depicted. Very stiffly painted. And those claws! 

I only have one that I purchased from @shine awhile ago. It's a Kangxi period. One day I hope to get it restored. 

Mark

Screenshot 20220802 102649
Screenshot 20220802 102649
Screenshot 20220802 102728

I am still so jealous of this one 🙂 


   
Shine, Jeremy Beer, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
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Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4836
02/08/2022 1:31 am  

There’s an orange/brown color used on the man with the stick. It seems unusual to me. But this is not my field, I have only some Ming blue and white.

Birgit


   
Ming1449 and Adams Asian Art reacted
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 404
Topic starter 02/08/2022 4:37 am  

@shinigami thanks Brigit, I noticed the brown, they do seem to mix the red and yellow sometimes, but I'm no expert either.


   
Shinigami and Adams Asian Art reacted
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 404
Topic starter 02/08/2022 4:39 am  

@imperialfinegems thanks Mark, I don't think it's modern.  Here's a modern version, there's quite a difference.  This is surely modern because the seller has 2 for sale .

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334508233093?hash=item4de23e9185:g:cq0AAOSwYk9i1yvd


   
Adams Asian Art reacted
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 404
Topic starter 02/08/2022 4:48 am  

Here's a square wucai bowl with the mark close to the edges but no double squares...

 

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_PDF-733

Screenshot 20220802 094635

   
Adams Asian Art reacted
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 5:45 am  

Here's a challenge for you - Find me a genuine Wanli wucai piece with that squiggly green cloud/fire design with black lines, or the square mark that almost touches the foot rim.

That mark is Jiajing, as well as not being a square mark.

More importantly, how can you dismiss the Ebay modern piece as evidence of your bowl being of later production when the Ebay piece has as much (or as little) in common with your bowl as the Jiajing bowl from the British Museum has with your bowl, which you cite as evidence of marks that nearly touch the foot rim?

What’s the saying? Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Just to clarify - I never said your bowl was modern. In fact, I said your bowl looked quite old, as well as being well rendered.

I simply think your bowl is a Japanese copy.

You seem to be putting a good effort into proving it is Chinese by finding ‘similar’ Chinese pieces.

Try putting the same effort into finding comparable Japanese pieces, too.

 

 

 

 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 5:49 am  

Here’s a Japanese bowl that’s mostly blue & white with a circle mark that nearly touches the foot rim… it’s close, right?

https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/3443067-imari-porcelain-bowl-with-wanli-mark-japan-18th-century-mid-edo-period


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 5:53 am  

Look at the right rendering of the mark on this Japanese vase attributed to the early 20th c. The characters are tightly rendered…. Close to how your bowl’s mark looks, right?

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/an-early-20th-century-japanese-imari-porcelain-va-649-c-7254a70bf0


   
ReplyQuote
 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 404
Topic starter 02/08/2022 5:53 am  

@greeno107 thanks again Tim, I'm working on your challenge.  Obviously I would prefer the piece to be Chinese, so I'm biased.  

There's another possibility, that it is Chinese for the Japanese market, like this one.  I don't agree that the eBay one has an little in common as mine to the ming examples thou.  The enamels are clearly off. It looks modern, add you say mine looks old.  Anyway here the link to a Chinese for Japanese market. It has the orange colour Brigit referred to..

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17963/lot/499/

This post was modified 3 years ago by Thomas Johnson

   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 404
Topic starter 02/08/2022 6:04 am  

@greeno107 hi Tim the same can be said about the tightness of the mark (also the thickness of the line ) on the one I posted from the British museum

Screenshot 20220802 094635

 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 6:13 am  

Here’s a beautiful Edo period vase…. Just to give you an idea of the quality wucai copies that Japanese kilns were producing in the 18th c.

You definitely should not take it as a criticism that I (or anyone) thinks your bowl is Japanese.

https://m.artfoxlive.com/AuctionDetail?productId=1731389


   
ReplyQuote
Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
02/08/2022 6:20 am  

If you hate damaged porcelain,then turn away now.

An Edo period Wucai Bowl in Wanli style.

Strangely,no yellow enamel.

3 toed flying Dragon.

32307BCC B441 47E7 82E9 EFA01648DB1B
7AC8EEF7 27E0 4047 890C E058A515DFC4
5F0DE247 DA16 4B2D A6C6 100D6C679369
57F8FEDA 23EE 482B 9BCB 4766466DA120
9487343E 9374 4576 9C3A 2C8838484A35
152BB602 F7B3 40FA B71C 96F6A7387057
A452FA9D 3CD6 45F5 9C63 63CF862AAF66
E7897810 BFCA 403C 9D79 8DAF8906EBE0
EA9098F0 E74A 41BE AA38 4DD9C74626FE
D9FD62C1 33E3 45C2 AC67 B406B7A48222

   
Jeremy Beer, Ming1449, Greeno107 and 1 people reacted
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 6:24 am  

@thomasumjohnson 

There's another possibility, that it is Chinese for the Japanese market

I’m not aware of Chinese putting period reign marks on on export wares.

The dragon design of your bowl is a Chinese design, while the dish you cite appears to me to have Japanese swallows (chidori) drawn on them.

My very limited understanding of Chinese porcelains for the Japanese market is that pieces should be made with Japanese designs on Chinese porcelain, and not Chinese designs rendered in a Japanese manner… but I might have my thoughts crossed on this.

 

 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 6:41 am  

@thomasumjohnson You are misreading what I said.

I said…

I have a problem with the mark appearing to look so large in proportion to the foot rim.  The characters are awfully tightly written...kind of a Japanese thing going on with the writing.

The ‘tightness’ referred to only the rendering (the strokes) of the characters. The Japanese draw the Kanji slightly different than the Chinese in some cases, and the strokes come off looking shorter or narrower.

The Jiajing mark you cite has thick lines, but is not tightly written in my view.


   
ReplyQuote
Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
02/08/2022 6:44 am  

And to clarify…

The closeness of the square to the foot rim and the amount if space between the square and the six character mark is what I mean by proportions of the mark not being right for a genuine mark.

This post was modified 3 years ago by Greeno107

   
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