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Wucai Square bowl, immortal, wanli?

 
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 7:19 am  

Hello, I won this wucai bowl today.  I think there's a chance it's wanli (don't😂 laugh...) I did a fair amount of research, so thought it was worth a punt...  I thought the enamels were convincing and the wonky shape (perhaps not wonky enough?) The mark is a bit wired but there are a large variety of wanli marks, including some with this character on the top left.

Screenshot 20220729 181824 872
Screenshot 20220729 181744 366
Screenshot 20220729 181726 124
Screenshot 20220729 181904 618
Screenshot 20220729 181804 895
Screenshot 20220729 181842 597~2

 


   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 8:32 am  

Here's a closer shot of the dragon.

Screenshot 20220801 131424 054

 


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
01/08/2022 8:47 am  

@thomasumjohnson 

Not an expert by any means on these but it doesn't look carefully drawn enough to me, the dragon especially, and the mark is seemingly sloppy.  Also the dirty foot is odd to me it seems that some of the "dirt" made its way off of the foot onto the base, the inner corners of the foot.

Hopefully Stuart will pop in...

Jeremy


   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 8:56 am  

@jbeer2121 thanks Jeremy, wanli ware are notoriously sloppy..

https://alaintruong2014.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/a-rare-wucai-immortals-bowl-wanli-six-character-mark-and-of-the-period/

https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/A_PDF-738

Screenshot 20220731 231641~2

   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
01/08/2022 9:10 am  

It looks like a copy sloppy is not a form of authentication even thought they are crude they still have a flow.


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
01/08/2022 9:15 am  

@thomasumjohnson 

Thomas,

I think they are less "sloppy" but loose but with purpose, I have had a few, and have one Wanli piece, it is loosely decorated, but the decoration flows.  Never had a Wanli wucai piece though, so I could be wrong. 

Jeremy


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
01/08/2022 9:19 am  

@thomasumjohnson I think the rendering is really fantastic and very much in the style of Wanli wucai - it also looks quite old.

What is the size of this bowl?  Specifically, what is the size of the foot rim?

I have a problem with the mark appearing to look so large in proportion to the foot rim.  The characters are awfully tightly written...kind of a Japanese thing going on with the writing.

I haven't even taken a look at Google, so this is just a gut response....my gut says it is Japanese ... perhaps quite early.


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
01/08/2022 9:26 am  

The origin of the square shape seems to be Jiajing period ...

https://www.christies.com/lot/a-small-blue-and-white-square-cup-6194556/?intObjectID=6194556&lid=1

The writing in the mark might be proportionally correct, but that double square seems to be drawn too close to the footrim. Compare to this very small Wanli wucai dish with square mark...

https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4801531


   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 9:56 am  

@greeno107 thanks greeno, it's 12cm wide...  I was taken by the opaque enamels, specifically the yellow and green..  

 


   
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avatar
 avatar
(@avatar)
Noble Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1427
01/08/2022 9:59 am  

Looks good. I hope you've got a good one ...


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
01/08/2022 10:02 am  

@thomasumjohnson I totally understand... it is quite pretty.  I think when you put it side by side with the Christie's plate, you can see some significant differences in the color of the blue and the manner of the mark.

Your bowl is about 3 times the size of the plate, yet the mark on the plate is well within the foot rim.

Over the years, I have bought some very convincing wucai works made in Japan during the late 19th c. to early 20th c. with Chinese marks.  They seem to have the enamels and overall aesthetic near perfect to Wanli wares.

Hopefully, Stuart chimes in.... I wouldn't want you to just take my word on this one... it is a bit earlier than what I normally deal with.

This post was modified 3 years ago by Greeno107

   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 10:14 am  

@greeno107 thanks again...  Here's a comparison of the dragon to a Christie's example.  The enamels look very similar to me. Crystallization in the greens.  Also the wear is similar.

Screenshot 20220801 150416 446
Screenshot 20220801 131424 054

 The actual outside of the Christie's bowl is much cleaner...   

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6160323

 

This is a similar size, but perhaps a little bit bigger..

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25494/lot/860/

This post was modified 3 years ago by Thomas Johnson

   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
01/08/2022 10:34 am  

Are there any 3 toe Wucai dragons from the period?


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
01/08/2022 10:45 am  

@thomasumjohnson Well, as I said, I do think iit is quite beautiful, completely in the style of Wanli wucai, and it looks old...  How exactly can you tell a wear from 100 years ago from wear that is from 400 years ago?  If you can tell, then you've got me beat.

However, in this case I think the design of the dragon having 3 claws might be a tell.  I suppose it is not impossible for it to be 3 claws in Chinese art, but generally only Yuan pieces or earlier have 3 claws.

I think the comparison of the dragons show some differences that make me lean towards Japanese...3 claws...happy face rather than fierce.

However, when comparing the side decoration... it lines up very nicely with Wanli period examples.

One final thought.... the body of Wanli wares seem to be a bit askew...the edges of bowls and plates are often warped a bit, or slightly concave.  Your bowl, at least what I see inthe photos, has a nicely formed body.

I admit...I am not certain on the origin/age of this bowl...so, as my golden rule tells me to say... I don't know.  I'm sure others will have more valuable input than me.


   
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
Topic starter 01/08/2022 11:50 am  

@greeno107 thanks for the input, I see what you mean about the 3 claws...   The only thing I can find at the moment is that wanli winged dragons don't seem to have any claws.   I didn't think see it before, but it appears as thou the dragon within my bowl has wings....  Or am I imagining it?  In which case could it be in the transformation stage between a clawed and a winged dragon? Something I'll have to look into...

Here's a wanli winged dragon from Bonhams...   It has a similar shape to mine,not too wonky 

 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22235/lot/134/

 

Screenshot 20220801 131424 054
This post was modified 3 years ago 2 times by Thomas Johnson

   
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