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Hi, this bowl is included in Bidamount’s weekly newsletter this week and it has been sold at eBay at $640. It is a Doucai bowl with a Guangxu mark. The bowl is in very good condition. Both the style of painting and the mark appear to be imperial instead of provincial. My question is: If this isn’t an authentic piece, Peter wouldn’t include it in the weekly newsletter, right? But if it’s real, then why is it sold for only $640?
It's authentic imo based on the pictures, but not top product of this reign. There are a lot of bowls and cups with this design made at Guangxu era. They are used in the palace and court, but not by emperor. It's a reasonable price.
Xin
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@xin_fawis Thanks for your reply but I am sorry that I really can’t agree with you. An authentic imperial Doucai bowl of Guangxu period in this good condition would fetch a lot more money than $640 in the market. Doucai has underglaze cobalt blue and overglaze enamels as the decorations and it’s much rarer than blue and white wares as well as famille rose wares. To be honest, I don’t think that this bowl is an authentic piece of the period of Guangxu, because the shape of the lip rim looks a bit stiff, the body of the bowl looks too thick and chunky, and the glaze doesn’t look convincingly old either. In my opinion, this is only a modern copy and it shouldn’t be included in Bidamount’s weekly newsletter, which might misguide the subscribers.
This kind of bowls are not rare and NOT made for the emporer. I would not call this bowl with this quality as an imperial bowl. They are not made by the imperial kiln, but outsourced to civil kilns.
They are offered often as sets on auctions. There are still a lot of this unpacked in the storage of the Forbidden City in Beijing. Most of them have low quality. I also have one cup with the same design. I paid 50 Euro for it.
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Are these the kinds of items the Empress Dowager would use as diplomatic gifts? I remember on Antiques Roadshow a woman had jewelry from that era that had been made for diplomatic reasons (given to her ancestor in fact) and wasn't of imperial standards but a notch or two below.
I don't think so. Diplomatic gifts have much better quality than this bowl.
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There are many , many mark and period Guangxu bowls and porcelain items which are not 'imperial' . I think by the late C19th imperial supervision of the kilns in Jingdezhen was much laxer. Also Guangxu-marked pieces continued to be produced into the Republican period , so this bowl also could be a bit later than the Guangxu period .
tam
From some of the replies above, we can already tell how much controversy and confusion this type of example being listed in the weekly newsletter may cause among Chinese porcelain collectors.
While I appreciate everyone’s replies, I would like to ask everybody to pay closer attention to some of the details, for example, how the foot rim was trimmed, what does the paste at the foot rim look like, how was the Doucai painting executed, the overall shape and quality of pottery of the entire piece, and how well the mark was written? In general, does it look more like a provincial ware for the domestic market or an high end product for imperial court or export? Are you able to find any of the information contradictory to each other?
Just so you know, an authentic Guangxu imperial blue and white dish, in regular size, mark and of the period, in good condition, is worth around $2,000. This Doucai bowl, if it was indeed an authentic imperial bowl, would definitely be much more expensive.
Sorry, everyone, I think the only confusion here is mine. 🙄 I don't understand what the issue is.
Why wouldn't Peter put this type of item in the newsletter? What has the price got to do with whether or not a piece is included?
If this were Imperial, sure it would have gone for more but look at the difference in quality of this piece:
There is no comparison, but that doesn't mean the bowl in question isn't a Guangxu piece with a reign mark, as many other items of non-Imperial quality also have, that some people liked enough to bid up to $640. I wouldn't have, I find it rather harshly coloured and unappealing but it has every right to be in the newsletter.
Or are you saying it is a deliberately faked Imperial bowl?
In general, does it look more like a provincial ware for the domestic market or an high end product for imperial court or export?
It seems what you're failing to realize is that there are many, many, many levels of quality between provincial and imperial ware. The bowl in question is one such example.
@julia Hi, Thank you for sharing with us another Doucai example with a Guangxu mark. I don't know where you got the picture from, but to be frank with you, I do have some concerns about the authenticity of the dish in the picture. Attached please find another picture of a pair of Guangxu imperial Doucai dishes from Sotheby's, which were sold at the price of 5,040 GBP in the year of 2006. If you would pay close attention to the details of the four peaches near the center and compare with the picture that you posted, it is pretty obvious that, 1) the red and green parts on the peaches in your picture are so clearly divided, while the shading and blending of the two colors are done much better in Sotheby's examples; and 2) the peaches in your picture look more like acorns instead of peaches, which indicates that there are some problems in the painter's brushwork and skills. Furthermore, if you also pay close attention to how the ribbons were drawn, you would also find similarly stiff brush strokes. It takes very sharp and artistic eyes to tell all these subtle difference between authentic pieces and high-end modern copies. Thanks, Jacob
What is it worth? $640 plus shipping, if it gets paid for and if not then better luck next time. I'm with Julia in that I'm unsure of the purpose of this circular hypothetical, straight thinking please.
It’s always difficult to tell from pictures only, but I wouldn’t describe the bowl in question as imperial quality. I have a famille rose imperial quality bowl from Guangxu, it looks a bit more refined and the mark on the bottom is perfectly crisp. In fact the somewhat blurred underglaze blue worries me here. They were able to do better at this time.
Birgit
Hi Jacob,
Sorry, I should have said the bowl was from Christie's, it was the first one I came across.
I am sorry but your pictures aren't sharp enough for me to appreciate the points you are making but I can clearly see that the peaches are also an odd shape; maybe you missed that.
However, I am still none the wiser as to what point you are trying to make here. I don't think the bowl from the newsletter is Imperial quality; the decoration is not harmonious or refined enough, but I don't think anyone claimed it was.
Are you saying the bowl in the newsletter is a fake ie not Guangxu at all?
Julia
@julia Hi Julia, In my opinion, the bowl in last week’s newsletter is a modern copy. Judging from the quality of the painting, how the foot rim was trimmed into loach-back shape and how the mark was made, I would say that it was a low-end copy. In another word, it tried, but failed. Now, back to the Christie’s example that you posted, in my opinion, it is also a modern copy, although it might be a better copy. The pair of dishes that I mentioned were sold at Sotheby’s in 2006. In my opinion, those are authentic (of Guangxu Period). For more clear pictures, you may search at Sotheby’s website by typing “Guangxu Doucai”. It should be pretty easy to find them. I have described the difference between the Christie’s dish and the Sotheby’s dishes in my last post. I am sorry that, I couldn’t attach a picture of those dishes with a higher clarity, because this forum has a limit of 2MB for the size of file. Thanks for the discussions. Best, Jacob
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