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Thanks, Brian I didn't say there was a mystery. 😆 I simply like to check facts and read up on things I am told.
I will keep looking for information. I am interested to know how this was done, who did it (good non-stamped marks must have required some skill) and how common this was. I will look on Gotheborg later to see if anything is on there.
@julia here is a good read on that time period it gives a good insight on the buying frenzy of the west and why it was beneficial to place marks for collections.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/etchi_0755-5857_2015_num_34_2_1551
Thanks Brian, that was very enjoyable and certainly showed the buying frenzy of the early 20th c. Now, I would like to read some of that dealer's essays on the detection of fakes. 😊
However, it didn't say anything about an attempt to decieve buyers in the Republic period by applying reign marks to unsold earlier pieces and I haven't been able to find anything on Gotheborg or Watersilkdragon either.
You'd think that if this was a common practice, it would be widely known and talked about. Maybe there will be something in Houo's "Preuves" - if I get to read it.
@julia I don’t really think that there has been much interest in this due to the fact that this practice is not a new practice marks were placed on many unmarked items from all periods. So with the end off the Qing many republic shops purchased Imperial court panels and produced court robes for tourist is it Qing or Republic? Another question why do early Republic vases have very high quality enamels with a horrible wax stamp in most cases. Peter on his reign mark page states most marks are copied and very few are authentic. Are we saying that if the kiln production was complete with enamel firing but not the marks on year 1912 they stopped and halted the production and didn’t complete the marks destroying the entire lot. Antique production time was weeks to months from start to finish and export times were sometimes years. Almost all CHINA stamped marks are from the Republic period these marks were added for export purposes so this theory would say anything marked China is republic even though they had to be added on all old stock to be export. Embellishing items is nothing new to the Chinese and European markets. A lot of book information from the past was incorrect. With many years of collecting and researching a good hypothesis can be accepted.
Brian, I do know about the existence of fake marks. This is simply the first time I have heard that marks were deliberately added during the Republic period to unsold stock dating from the Qing dynasty that was languishing in warehouses. That isn't just a simple matter of items in production being finished in 1912 which I would expect to still be finished with marks appropriate to the period.
Please don't be offended by my interest to know more. This site is about learning. 😊
@julia Another aspect of this is I have found it interesting that some late Qing and Republic period pieces copying 18th c work seem to bring so much when they have apocryphal marks, almost as if the mark enhances value even though it is apocryphal. Seems weird to me given that they are reproductions of their day. I suppose these pieces are high quality, but still, seems odd that a high quality fake 100 years old is worth tens of thousands when a high quality fake today is looked down on and maybe worth a couple hundred. And where is the cutoff before it becomes just another vintage/modern fake- the 30's, 40's, 50's....? It is all so relative and arbitrary. I get baffled at the valuation rationale the industry uses sometimes.
@shinigami I'm thinking of things like this: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/pavilion-online-chinese-art/famille-rose-revolving-reticulated-vase-3243/119563
John, I think the issue is that these are high quality items and although reproductions of earlier styles they aren't trying to trick people into thinking they are original, which basically is what Birgit said. 😊
Maybe the difference you have noticed that having an imperial mark makes to the value of these, is that it underlines the quality of these pieces like saying 'fit for a King' or Emperor in this case, and people always like associations with royalty.
@julia You could be right, although I am curious to know if there is something documented to support the idea they weren't made to deceive back then? And if they weren't, then why wouldn't the talented shops that made them have put their own maker's mark on them to advertise their products rather than use the generic apocryphal reign mark? At any rate, they are great quality and have some age, so regardless they have value as being what they are for sure. Merry Christmas all! John
Regarding the Republic era, that article Brian posted mentioned a desire to show pride in their past and recreating these items were a way of doing that.
Merry Christmas to you, too. 😊
@johnshoe I have been studying this period and the many different event that caused the trends of republic period counterfeits. Yes at the time they did counterfeit porcelain for Western thirst for authentic antiquities. But it was more of a supply and demand issue. The reason those high end piece are achieving those prices is some believe they were made by the Imperial potters many still fired pieces in the imperial kilns even after the fall. Most worked in local shops. Julia I am not offended at all I learned about old stock after purchasing several lamped vases I started to figure out that the Chinese were marking old stock when I found a pair of Qing vases for export one was unmarked the other marked with a Qainlong four character red wax mark. Qing Dynasty export is usually always unmarked but this vase was definitely marked during the republic period. My theory and it’s just that is most red stamp marks on good quality porcelain’s are old stock. I really see this a lot on Straits porcelain.
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Not new production:These pieces were not newly made during the Republic period but were older items from previous dynasties that were still being traded.
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Distinctive marks and styles:The porcelain would often have the marks and decorative styles characteristic of the dynasty it was originally made in, which could include reign marks from earlier emperors.
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Potential for confusion:Due to the "old stock" nature, identifying the true origin of the piece can be challenging, especially if the piece has been altered or has a fake mark added later.
Thanks, Brian, interesting, but if it is your theory, maybe you should document examples and write about it. I'll read it! 😊
I thought you meant that reign marks were fired on old-stock using skilled artisans, which would have been quite an involved process with costs and risks, but reading your post it seems you simply meant that shop owners put reign marks on unsold stock from earlier decades using wax.
In which case, I imagine it is possible to chip off wax, so that would be a means of identifying if the mark was put on later. I would also expect wax marks to be appear clumsy or messy? I don't think I have come across anything like that, but it might help explain strange stains I sometimes see. It is certainly something to look out for.
If you find any more examples, please post them up.
Are we talking about wax seals like these?
Birgit
I am thinking Brian means actual imperial reign marks but made of a similar wax to that used in export seals as he seemed to be suggesting that the mark on the piece that is the subject of this thread, could have been added in the Republic period.
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