Great thread for learning stuff. The republican items can command huge value it seems. I have been rooting for Corey and the floating flowers, and it got very interesting when Corey found examples of other Qianglong Vases with floating flowers and the same colour of blue. Certainly got my interest. I like Giovanni's blunt assurance and it would never have gotten so interesting otherwise. 

At the end of the day, you can be sure Corey has found something of value and I hope that this discussion continues. The Peony is either been copied by modern people republican pieces, from the 70;s or it is a modern Peony vibe to it. 

It is easy to see why Corey's vase can be overlooked. 

Dear Short Dong,

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it is worthless to say that “…. found examples of other Qianglong Vases with the same colour of blue.”

You can have the exact type of blue on a Qianlong vase and on a Republic vase. What does it means? That both are Qianlong? Or both are Republic? It means nothing else than both are underglaze cobalt blue, regardless the age.

It is true that some particular type of blue are more common during certain periods, but it is not the case of the blue that we see on this vase.

Some Kangxi ware have an impressive nice blue, which is typical; but that doesn’t mean that all Kangxi ware has the same blue, and doesn’t mean that that blue is exclusive of Kangxi. You can have some Republic piece with really nice blue and some Kangxi piece with dull blue.

Besides that, you must consider that the blue that you see on your monitor can be much far from the real blue of the piece.

Each digital camera has difference in color rendition. The same camera can yield a different blue hue if the image is lightly over or under exposed. Then you have the WB, the white balance setting which is extremely important but disregarded by many, then you have the monitor, which rarely is calibrated.

Imagine what happens if the picture is taken from a book. You have all the above twice, plus the alterations made by the printing process.

That is the reality. Add to that that many users take pictures and look at images through the smartphone: a real disaster!

That is the reason why in my sales I always declare that the pictures are taken with professional camera, that the white balance is carefully set, and my monitor, although not professional, is at least calibrated.

But that is not excluding that who is looking at my sales is seeing the colors the same way. It depends on his media.

Conclusion: do not judge a piece by the blue color only!

Giovanni

Posted by: clayandbrush

Dear Short Dong,

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it is worthless to say that “…. found examples of other Qianglong Vases with the same colour of blue.”

You can have the exact type of blue on a Qianlong vase and on a Republic vase. What does it means? That both are Qianlong? Or both are Republic? It means nothing else than both are underglaze cobalt blue, regardless the age.

It is true that some particular type of blue are more common during certain periods, but it is not the case of the blue that we see on this vase.

Some Kangxi ware have an impressive nice blue, which is typical; but that doesn’t mean that all Kangxi ware has the same blue, and doesn’t mean that that blue is exclusive of Kangxi. You can have some Republic piece with really nice blue and some Kangxi piece with dull blue.

Besides that, you must consider that the blue that you see on your monitor can be much far from the real blue of the piece.

Each digital camera has difference in color rendition. The same camera can yield a different blue hue if the image is lightly over or under exposed. Then you have the WB, the white balance setting which is extremely important but disregarded by many, then you have the monitor, which rarely is calibrated.

Imagine what happens if the picture is taken from a book. You have all the above twice, plus the alterations made by the printing process.

That is the reality. Add to that that many users take pictures and look at images through the smartphone: a real disaster!

That is the reason why in my sales I always declare that the pictures are taken with professional camera, that the white balance is carefully set, and my monitor, although not professional, is at least calibrated.

But that is not excluding that who is looking at my sales is seeing the colors the same way. It depends on his media.

Conclusion: do not judge a piece by the blue color only!

Giovanni

 

The blue on the vase is unusual and taking everything you have said about digital cameras into account, it is always staisfying to find a similar colour blue on the same period piece in another picture regardless. As it does exactly what you have said it eliminates all of those previous factors and excludes the blue as being a factor against the item. 

Colour is a factor but i agree the actual real colour is usually brighter or darker than the actual image, however the images are exotremely useful as the digital camera can provide exceptionally good contrast and form. I often have an item and  compare it to the picture and sometimes they are identical.

The actual light of the picture once captured by a digital camera goes to the  image sensor which measures the colour and brightness and  and the cmos stores this as a code, a string of numbers,  therefore once the image is taken it is a set code, that may change based on the medium you view it with but will not change it's code. You an download or upload it and it will be the same true image.  

The brightness is always going to be a factor and depending on the model of camera you get brighter colours or darker colours however the form and contrast are usually very good. 

So  it is satisfying to find an item of of the same colour regardless of the camera used or the white balance as it eliminates the colour as a factor. Also you can get used to the varying degrees of colour in pictures of pieces you are very familiar with. That becomes second nature. 

Hi Short Dong,

may be I have not been clear, or may be you are not understanding things the right way.

First at all it is evidently not clear to you how digital images works. Yes it is a code, but the code is far for representing the reality and it changes from camera to camera. No doubt about that.

You said that a blue is excluding as being a factor against the authenticity. This you said because you have found two colors that looks similar. Sorry but you are not considering what I said.  The blue is proving nothing here, absolutely nothing. If you wish, I can show you 20^th century pieces with the exact nice blue for which Kangxi ware is famous of. Then? It is not 20^th century?

On the same wise, I can show you Kangxi items with dull blue. Then? Not Kangxi?

It is a useless discussion, totally useless because found on nothing relevant.

Giovanni

Hello, all 

I have been following all your posts on this gallbladder vase. I want to see 

what's your thoughts on this gallbladder vase that was made it to a lamp. 

You know without discussion like this know one learns there alway someone's 

have a different point of understanding about apiece you cannot base Chinese 

porcelain on one aspect you have to look at all points. Starting with the history

of the piece your looking at and there always something you can learn from other.

here my vase lamp thanks John

hi john, on the face of it, your vase looks modern and mass-produced

Posted by: clayandbrush

Hi Short Dong,

may be I have not been clear, or may be you are not understanding things the right way.

First at all it is evidently not clear to you how digital images works. Yes it is a code, but the code is far for representing the reality and it changes from camera to camera. No doubt about that.

You said that a blue is excluding as being a factor against the authenticity. This you said because you have found two colors that looks similar. Sorry but you are not considering what I said.  The blue is proving nothing here, absolutely nothing. If you wish, I can show you 20^th century pieces with the exact nice blue for which Kangxi ware is famous of. Then? It is not 20^th century?

On the same wise, I can show you Kangxi items with dull blue. Then? Not Kangxi?

It is a useless discussion, totally useless because found on nothing relevant.

Giovanni

I agreed with the substance of your post Giovanni and it was not you but another poster that mentioned the blue colour was off, and it is that poster i also agree with that you can develop a second nature in regard colour after long experince studying images and pitcures one gets a sense of colour even when factoring in the camera.

400 years ago did the great Italian painter Caravaggio not use optical aids in the form of mirrors and light order to create his master pieces. He copied them from mirror images, a form of camera obscura and made great use of optical  images including colours. Even the masters exploited optics  until the camera replaced optics for chemicals and now we have digital.

Have i stumbled upon a taboo.

I agree partly that colour can be key. I don't think the typical Kangxi blue can be reproduced exactly in republic or new items because the supply of that cobalt has been exhausted and the techniques they used were lost.

same applies for older underglaze blues eg. From the yuan dynasty. 

but I also agree that white balance etc. can easily or sometimes deceive the viewer.

none of the forum commentors have handled the original vase in question, but I was 'bumped' by the synthetic look to its blue enamel, and by the gilding, amongst other things, like the footrim. 

I still think it's modern, not even republic, and made to deceive as a fake. None of the OP's research convinced me   - because it's a good fake. And  because he uses other dubious vases as comparison pieces, and because the consensus overwhelmingly here is: not C18th.

Posted by: tam18

I agree partly that colour can be key. I don't think the typical Kangxi blue can be reproduced exactly in republic or new items because the supply of that cobalt has been exhausted and the techniques they used were lost.

same applies for older underglaze blues eg. From the yuan dynasty. 

but I also agree that white balance etc. can easily or sometimes deceive the viewer.

none of the forum commentors have handled the original vase in question, but I was 'bumped' by the synthetic look to its blue enamel, and by the gilding, amongst other things, like the footrim. 

I still think it's modern, not even republic, and made to deceive as a fake. None of the OP's research convinced me   - because it's a good fake. And  because he uses other dubious vases as comparison pieces, and because the consensus overwhelmingly here is: not C18th.

There is nothing negative about Corey researching the vase and quite the opposite one should encourage an open inquiring mind with antiques. In summary we have to admit there are limitations to appraising an item through pictures and Corey possibly should have asked the seller more questions. Perhaps there may be a way of helping him to determine its age by techniques other than visual which he can do himself.

I still stand by my earlier comments, however, can we change perspective and assume, for argument's sake,  the vase is good for Qianlong?  In that case, the mark has to be correct - is that a reasonable assumption? 

If so, then the mark has to be considered from the point of being authentic.  I know this is a minefield but on very close inspection does this mark look as though it were drawn by someone to whom the drawing of this mark was natural?  I don't think it does.  

From a personal perspective, if I were the artist, I would have used a blue mark, the red and blue do not look elegant.  But that is just me.  ? 

Corey, why don't you send pictures to one of the big auction houses.  Or better still, take it in if you can.  We would all love to be wrong, it would be the stuff dreams are made of.  Right or wrong, I know I have learned so much, as usual, from these discussions. Thanks, guys!

Julia

Dear Corey,

In my humble opinion your vase is much later copy of a Qianlong vase - a form of appreciation to the older techniques and masters. I think it was made in mid 20th century. Therefore it doesn't have to be a fake, more of a copy if you understand the difference I am trying to point out. However it definitely isn't late 18th century - no chance for that, it doesn't have a single feature of an item that old.

best regards,

Adrian

I know very well what you mean, dear Adrian. Many of the finest imperial pieces have been copied in the 20th century, but where is the Qianlong period original then. I haven't been able to find it, and I would really like to see it. But that option also looks to me as the most likely one, because the vase with its shape, motive and the yangcai enamels seems to follow certain guidelines set in the Qing dynasty imperial kilns, whereas republic period porcelain seem to follow some other guidelines (hope this makes some sense). The 20th century copies of the imperial pieces goes very high on the Chinese auctions these days, possibly because they are linked to the continuation of the imperial kilns.

The blue color was brought up by the other posters who wrongfully thought it was underglaze blue and that it would disqualify the vase as Qianlong period. The fact that known Qianlong period porcelains can have the same blue enamel color, doesn't prove anything of cause.

And I was of cause all ready aware of the double gourd vases sold at Christie's and the similarities with my vase like crab apple together with peony and chrysanthemum, the individual floating flowers, the blue band of ruyis and of cause the combination of the feminine pastel colors set on a white ground, which to me is the most beautiful of the famille rose palette.  I thought it's a little strange that my vase is now disqualified because it doesn't have butterflies. And besides there are Qing dynasty examples with flower branches only, like this white ground Dauguang period dish, that also has a red seal mark on a white base.

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/important-chinese-art-l16210/lot.122.html

The links I posted was to put the vase into context. If it should turn out that I am right in my perhaps wishfull idea of the vase as Qianlong mark and period, it would rank among some of the finest and rarest imperial porcelains, and the value of the vase would probably be in the seven figures.

I would like to send pictures to Christie's or Sotheby's , but I would prefer to have found the Qianlong period original or counterpart first, and I also have many other pieces I would also like to show them that are more likely of being authentic rare and valuable ceramics, so I will probably start with them.

I came across this pair of samewhat similar shapes vases with flower sprays and butterflies. Looks like folk kiln copies of something imperial. I'm sure there will be some closely related Qianlong period imperial vases out there...

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2018/inspired-chinese-art-the-collection-of-gerson-and-judith-leiber-n09828/lot.433.html

Dear Corey,

I did not understand up to now what you were looking for. Now I understand by the beginning of your last post that you are convinced that the decoration on your vase is of imperial quality and the whole motif too is imperial.

Have you already seen an imperial quality polychrome vase? I think not, otherwise you will change your opinion immediately.

Giovanni

I thought I had all ready drawn the comparison with the macau european subject vase; with the quality of the porcelain and the similarty of the enamels. But that one is just a plain fake in your opinion, right? and I said that the motif (with the combination of flowers, the rim and base decoration, and the rounded foot-ring with a recessed base, and the combinations of colors etc.) seem to follow some guidelines set in the imperial kilns, not that "the whole motif is imperial". You have a tendency to distort the content of my postings. But if I really have to waste my time like you say that I do, then at least it's not gonna be on your tiresome posings.

Have a nice day!

Okay, I have finish to post in this thread, trying to help people who is really interested to increase his knowledge, but really no chance if someone thinks that his car is a Ferrari because the wheels are round, and there is even compressed air inside.

Saying that a vase could be Qianlong because it has certain flowers, the foot rim is rounded and it has a certain color palette, all things that era EXTREMELY common on Chinese ware, and especially on later periods, is exactly the same than the example that I made before with the car.

One day, if you will change your method and will understand just a bit, not necessarily that much, you will understand that I am not exaggerating: you are at this exact level by now.

I am not feeling that I am offending you, I am just reporting the reality.

Good luck.

Giovanni