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@avatar Who owns these pieces, where are they, China, Europe, or else where? Are you going to acquire them? Good luck.
They were sold at an online auction. I didn't get the winning bid.
Your lucky you did not win these yellow and aubergine dishes.
These are not Qianlong period but 20th/21st Century.
The scales on the yellow dragon are wrong and poorly depicted. The central plumage on the phoenix are wrong.
Ones with both the dragon and phoenix are rare. Normally seen with two dragons.
These are being copied on China atm and sold worldwide at auction.
Mostly you see a unusual amount of Guangxu marked ones.
Even Sotheby's recently sold one as m&p but it certainly wasn't.
Mark
Qianlong m&p sold by Christies.
Please carefully compare the scales and eyes.
This one sold by Sotheby's as m&p but imo it's brand new! Oddly has provenance which is probably correct but I think the vendors switched the dish.
Compare the scales with known m&p... Notice the sloppy way it's depicted especially towards the end of the yellow tail.
Here is a Guangxu marked double dragon but new. Note the similar scales.
Genuine examples from the Qianlong period depicting both dragon and phoenix are exceptionally rare and I personally have never seen one.
Mark
Hi Cory -
Concur with Mark@imperialfinegems - the incised detailing, motif combination, glaze and mark writting indicate these have little age ...
Mark is also correct in the large number of fakes of these types currently been produced, mostly with Guangxu marks but I have also seen/handled Kangxi/Qianlong marked examples more recently ...
You were fortunate not to acquire these ...
Stuart
I meant to say strange to me but my phone auto correct to straight.
@avatar, Well the gods of fortune were looking out for you Cory. If Sothey's does not know the difference, then we're at least in good company.
I'm not sure these plates are modern. I think they could be 19th century or possibly even Qianlong period.
There is a similar pair at Rob Michiels auction with an old Sotheby's sticker at the back and they sold high for a pair of 19/20th dishes.
And then there is this one at a Chinese site. Not sure if the site reliable but it seems like there is reference to a pair in the imperial collection shown at page 170 in the book "故宫博物院藏文物珍品大系 -杂釉彩▪素三彩".
And then there is a pair at this Chinese auction. (I can't open the link on the public computer I'm using which blocks many of the Chinese site but only on my phone.)
http://www.xlysauc.net/auction5_det.php?id=192947&ccid=1252&n=3949
The book menioned is 'The Complete Collection of Treasures of the Palace Museum' - 'Three Colors'.
Cory I can tell you that the pair sold at RM auction were not 19/20th but 20/21st. The price achieved is irrelevant if fake. RM is a good auction place but not every thing he sells is genuine. The Sotheby's sticker is a obvious fake. Rob should have known better here.
Same thing with Liang one.
The last reference is in conclusive because the images are terrible.
There are hundreds of these lower tier auction houses operating in China selling fakes. They come and go quickly.
These copies have only been made in the last 5 years or so. And have fooled many knowledgeable dealers when they first appeared.
But they have one major fault in all of them which can easily separate them from the originals which I am not prepared to explain on a open forum because as you know these fakers often use these sites.
I have spent many hundreds of hours studying these designs in depth etc. Not just by looking at pictures but more importantly handling them.
And I can guarantee without reservation at all to you that the ones you missed out on were in fact new and worth no more than $100 each.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Mark I have gotten to know a shop owner really good that flies to China and buys containers of these types and other items. I have not posted the items here due to I don’t want cheaters to find out about his shop. The fakes are so good I go there just to study and handle them. The only reason I respect this shop owner is he puts CN on all of the container items and tells the buyers they are not authentic. He does consign authentic pieces and gets some great things.
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