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Received this the other day, sold as early Ming late Yuan. It is is a provincial bowl so not perfect but it does (in my viewJ have a certain simple charm. Once in hand I believe it to be 100% Yuan. The paste is rustic and not very white, the look the orange tinge on the unglazed foot would indicate maybe it fired a bit too hot in the kiln. The decoration is of a flower done very freely with two shades of blue also has several circles delineating the decoration, as you can see it has the blue/grey shading to the glaze. What do you smart folks feel about my attribution that it is exclusively Yuan?
Ron
I find provincial pieces very attractive, too, they seem very real in that they are a link to everyday life in the past. I am not very useful at dating them, though. 😊
Maybe Stuart will look in; I am sure he will know.
Hi Ron -
Certainly not Yuan or early Ming ...
The painting style and drawing/interpretation of the flower motif, possibly a chrysanthemum, is very different then that seen late 14th/early-mid 15th century wares, even those produce by the private kilns ...
The dark, almost black, cobalt tone indicates a native/local sauce or perhaps underfiring, as does the slightly grayish glaze tone - although this may be the images and/or lighting? ...
Will check through my library/database to see if I can find anything similar for comparisons and attributed dating given ...
Stuart
I thought the tone of cobalt the cup was Vietnamese but I didn’t want to stick my foot in my mouth.
Well that’s a bit disappointing. I backed my interpretation on several details. First the delineation of the decorative elements by rings I noticed while researching yuan bowls, and the free hand technique with no outlining as in earlier Ming. The two tones of blue, although darker than Ming were also present on many of the images I looked at. The paste is a bit coarse but I comfortably over look that being provincial as well as the poor firing. The shade of the glaze I could also attribute to poor quality materials. The orangey buff of the unglazed foot I thought indicated a hotter kiln temperature burning the porcelain not an under temperature kiln, guess I was wrong. All the images I looked at were attributed to Yuan.
my disappointment if turns out not to be Chinese Yuan would be my research criteria and it may require a rethink. On the upside if it does turn out to be Vietnamese but from the 1200’s I will still be happy with the purchase.
I’m into it for $100 Canadian (all in) so it is either a great deal or another lesson.
@ronm I like it, especially if it is from Southeast Asia and a 100 Canadian won't break the bank, but looks like it has age to me.
Here are a couple examples from around 1700.
Bowl dated c. 1700 from a wrecksite:
From Kangxi wreck / Bintan wreck c. 1710 (thanks to NK Koh):
Kaolin, thanks for the images, coming from a dated ship wreck I guess there is little bought my bowl is not even Ming, now I am really disappointed. Mostly at the vendor at this point, although I really shouldn’t be, I am the one who convinced myself. I sent off a message to him asking for his reason of a Late Yuan early Ming attribution, I will see what comes back.
I have been doing a lot of visual research over the last couple of days comparing the actual construction of the bowl, and in my mind had it pinned down to middle Ming based on the foot rim, materials and general shape. The foot rim is far to thin for what I noticed in Yuan dowels of the same quality level! The Yuan bowls tended to have a wider foot rim.
From a decoration point of view I had noticed on the Yuan outer body design most had decoration bellow the lower line like mine, were as I saw very little of that on Ming.
Being ever hopefull that it is at least Ming, as you know these drastic designs were used for a long time.
This is the YouTube video I found to be most informative in my determination. All provincial bowls from mid Ming. I see your images come from the same author.
On the upside I now have a better understanding of Chinese/Vietnamese relationship as far back as the Song Dynasty thanks to Brian.
Ron
Did a bit more research using he bowl posted by kaolin. Found this example
left side middle, it is only a shared but has the same pattern it came from this ship.
The Vũng Tàu shipwreck is a shipwreck that was found in the South China Sea off the islands of Côn Đảo about 100 miles from Vũng Tàu, Vietnam. The wreck was of a lorcha boat—a vessel with Cantonese/Chinese and Portuguese/European influences that has been dated to about 1690.[1] It was found by a fisherman who had picked up numerous pieces of porcelain from the wreck while fishing. Sverker Hallstromidentified the wreck and its cargo in 1990.[2] Australian diver Michael Flecker took charge of the archaeological aspect of the excavation.[3] An analysis of its cargo deduced that the ship was bound from China to Jakarta, Indonesia, where the porcelain would have been purchased by the Dutch East India Company for trans-shipment to Holland.[4]
my bowl shows none of the usual ship wreck features and is still shines so it either missed the boat or stayed in China.
Ron
So it would seem. The Wikipedia write up suggests it was a mixed cargo with some going to Holland. My bowl is a bit to rustic I think for even the most serious case of European porcelain fever.I should give credit to the source
Hi Ron -
Attached extracts from a lecture I attended in 2019, you may find this and the images Fig’s 3/6 interesting for comparisons ...
I would concur with Kaolin re dating c. 1700, your bowl been produced in either in Fujian or Guangdong where numerous kilns produced such blue and white wares ...
I hope this is of some help ...
Stuart
Stuart, thank you very much for posting that information, I am a lot smarter now (I believe). Combining his information with other general information gleaned over time I think I may have a good handle on the goings on of this period, I have generally known about ‘the transitional period’. I could never really find a specific start and end date to such a term. I now believe there are no firm dates for ‘the transitional period’, it does make sense that with the fall of the Ming the Qing would take many decades to completely subjugate Ming sentiment.
Another lesson I think would be the influence of global relations during this transitional period. The expelling of the Portuguese in from Japan in favour of the Dutch I knew about but the reasons for I had no idea. It would seem Japan in an effort to minimize the influence of Christianity followed the same practices as China with the Cantons and Indonesia with Batavia, restricting non Asian traders from transversing beyond certain confines.
Putting it all together, my bowl was probably made in Fujian China for the Vietnamese market about 1680 imported into Japan by a Ming loyalist destined for Vietnam. It may have been mixed in with finer quality porcelain from Jingdezhen destined for purchase by the VOC and early Arita wares also destined for the European market on boats like the ill fated Vung Tau.
i don’t feel so bad now about my bowl, it has a story, and I like that in my antiques.
Ron
An update to the story. Had a pleasant chat with the vendor of my bowl, seems he buys most of his wares from local fishermen who find it in their nets ect and depends on some on else to date his pieces. I informed him of his error in attribution. He has another and has since changed the description to reflect the Qing attribution.
Ron
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