@greeno107 I think the distressed lacquer is what makes it attractive to me the patina adds to the beauty that’s just my taste.

@greeno107 Maybe that is a Dutch klamput hat that I was reading about the other day and yes maybe one of our members knowledgable in items for Dutch market will be along. It does remind me of the hats on black ships porcelain.

This sounds very interesting. A couple of the figures do look like Chinese portrayals of the Dutch. However, would Chinese artists have encountered many in the early 16th c?  Trade with Holland didn't really start till later - early 17th c? The Portuguese got there much earlier, but I am not sure those figures are Portuguese.

I am not saying it isn't from the 16th c, I wouldn't know really. I am just saying that they would need to have seen Europeans to have such an accurate depiction and there would have to be some reason why they would be incorporated in a piece like this. It could well be a special order from a Dutch person but trade would have to exist to have those contacts and knowledge of the skills.

@julia You’re at a disadvantage not being able to see the carved dragons of the screen, but if you can take my word, stylistically it is 17th late Ming design.

I think since Mark’s suggestion of the 16th c dating was based upon the clothing, is it possible that style of clothing carried into the 17th c?

Has anyone seen depictions of this style of clothing in the 18th c. (Chinese or European depictions)?

My feeling is the significant wear to the background lacquer is more than what should be expected in 18th c, but I’m not ready to rule out any theories.

Here’s another photo- this one shows a elephant. Is that 17th style? 18th c.?  

Love the toes!

I don’t know if this helps any.  

@lotusblack Yes, I think what you've posted on the history of Dutch trade from the mid 16th c. into the early/mid 17th c. is what started me on posting and suggesting that the attire was Dutch influenced.  But I think these tastes may have stuck around a while in China until the late Kangxi.  So, if I were to put a range on possible dating at this point, I think late 16th c. to early 18th c.

I'm hoping (wondering) if anyone sees any other detail being overlooked that might help narrow the timeline based upon these photos.

Thanks, everyone.  It has been helpful.

@greeno107 

Hi Tim - 

The 'auspicious animal/creature' on the second image posted is a known motif on  mid 17th century ceramics, seen in both blue and white and enamelled pieces ...

I'll look through my database/library tomorrow and see if I can find some comparisons, will post if anything found ...

My congratulations on acquiring, looks to be a really interesting piece ...

Stuart 

@ming1449 Thank you - looking forward to seeing some comps.

@sharonp @julia

I’m sorry for not remembering, but did one of you have a book on determining porcelain depictions based upon faces/hair?

I probably should have posted this image earlier- does she look more Ming or Qing?

Tim, I am no experienced enough with such pieces to dispute your opinion on this.

I simply see that the figures look like later depictions of Dutch men on Chinese porcelains. It seems likely they are Dutch (I doubt they are Portuguese who arrived in the 16thc) but the knowledge of how a Dutch man should look can only develop through contact ie when the trading with the Dutch started ( I doubt they had prints to work from before then).

The Dutch really started trading and fighting with the Chinese in the 17th c so I think a later date in your range is more logical from this point of view. That would maybe tie in with what Stuart said?

@julia That's fine.  I appeciate your opinion, regardless.  I just thought I remember prior posts about a book that showed how woman's hair was rendered from each of the periods.  Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

@greeno107 It's the Tommy Eklof book. I just looked through. The big exaggerated hairdo seems to be popular 1500 - 1630 range. But I also see some potential for into the early 18th with the hair adornment. So a good compromise would be mid 17th to early 18th.

I was only judging by the European charachter on the basis that you can't draw something you don't know and for it to be there at all, it would have to have some relevance. The style of the Chinese people could be copied from other works or life. I recently saw a similar hairstyle on a modern figurine of a Chinese woman in traditional dress

So it has 8 panels, each with 4 figures or is it 2 on each side?  Or can't you tell us? I am so curious, it just sounds a really interesting piece. When you go to these sales, do you have to move the items out yourselves? I am guessing this must have been heavy.

@julia So it has 8 panels, each with 4 figures or is it 2 on each side?  Or can't you tell us? I am so curious, it just sounds a really interesting piece. When you go to these sales, do you have to move the items out yourselves? I am guessing this must have been heavy.

Julia, you’ve asked so many good questions, here.

The screen has 4 figures per panel, so a total of 32. Nothing on the back but the beauty of the unspoiled wood.  However, the pierced Ming style dragon design  and bead work if the frame is carved on the verso, so while clearly not the focus, the back is intended to be appreciated.

Each panel is almost seven feet tall and two feet wide, and while the screen is divided into two groups of four, it is extremely heavy - much like carrying a stack of four bedroom doors.

Heavy? Holy cow, yes!  Does the staff at the estate sale help? Generally no.  

These sales are generally not staffed with men in the physical shape to be moving heavy furniture, they’re always too busy to help (especially just as the sale starts), and there is liability issues.

This is why preparation is key.

Fortunately, earlier this year I bought a Zitan 4 panel floor screen with similar sized panels, so I knew what to expect. I packed an appliance dolly and a couple of cargo belts to fasten the screen to the dolly (super important).  Fastening the screen tightly to the dolly allows the two parts to behave as one, making it easier to maneuver.

Don’t get me wrong - it was still ridiculously heavy for just me (52 yes old and quite a bit out of shape), but believe me when I tell you - when you buy a piece of art at this caliber at an estate sale, you need to pay & get it out to you car ASAP!  There’s no time to worry about the impending aches and pains from moving something so heavy.

The competition are not graceful losers, and they make every effort to convince the seller to cancel your purchase, and to sell to them. 

This screen by most standards was an expensive item for an estate sale item - low 5 figures. Yet, even as I paid ((actually my wife paid while I got the screen ready to put in the car), a few people were actively trying to convince the seller to call off the sale and auction the piece.

It’s a dog eat dog competition when you come across high end art/antiques, so be prepared to fight, right down to the point you’ve put the piece in your car.

Let me add, this was an large older house, the panels were in the far end of the house, and every room was at a different height… yup, up and down a step every time I had to go into another room, and the place was packed tight with furniture… it was daunting.

BTW- Your deductive method on dating the piece is absolutely correct, and I think with everything that has been discussed thus far, mid 17th c is solidifying as the most probable time period.

Well, that has opened my eyes. I naïvely thought a high end estate sale might be more genteel. It seems incredible that others try to get the seller to stop the sale while someone is actually paying. I did wonder if the bigger items might be positioned with a view to easy removal, but I guess they are where they are. It sounds quite a marathon effort to get large items out, especially after a anight or so in the car, but it sounds like it is well worth it, this time anyway. It sounds pretty amazing!