The holes could have been drilled the old-fashioned way, by putting an abrasive on the tip of a piece of bamboo and rotating back and forth between the palms.

I'm afraid that's all I can offer on this one. 

The colour displayed are distorted because of the flash. Some look greyish-brown another looks greyish in colour. I was going to post a off-white picture of a meridian, superbly and intricate carving. The flash I used made it look a bright lavender that would have raised questions as to what it was made of. So I did not post.

Carving appears to be that of a immature chilong. Not really clear and slightly blurred. Only makes it more difficult.

Appears to be both jade and had some age being two dimensional.

It is very difficult to say with 100% certainty whether this is jade or another hardstone, based on the pictures posted. At least it passed the scratch test. That's half the battle over there.

You are absolutely correct with the notion of modern day tooling. Became widespread after about 1935. However the drill bit itself was patented in 1900.

Not sure why you have used a UV light. It does not help at all. A strong white light may reveal something surprising.

Mark

Thanks Mark,

Have uploaded photo with  no flash just natural light and one photo under a LED light. Think LED produces a white light. Anyway with those holes it just might  just make it a nicely carved new item regardless of the stone. I am sure I read somewhere that under black light jade gives off a certain glow I seem to have gotten myself mixed up there The first photo is natural light. The stone part is 9.5 cm long

Yes GST must be the reason for the Catawiki problem.

Regards

Michael 

Hello Again,

It's a funny thing you can look far and wide for information however sometimes things turn up right under your nose. Now I must point out I am not comparing my stone to the one in the photo below in terms of quality or age. The stone below is currently on offer on ebay from a dealer in the US who regularly appears in bid amount video's. The stone on offer is being sold as Ming as I say the dealer has a very good reputation so think there is no doubts about the item. The thing that caught my attention that on the back of the stone it has holes that look very much like the holes on the back of the stone I have posted. These holes look like they have been drilled by mechanical means.  It has been confirmed that the Chinese did not use drills until well into the 20th century so my question is by what means these holes were made. Craig has suggested that abrasive on a bamboo rod may of been used. Hope that some one may be able to confirm this or suggest another method that may of been used. Would like to establish if my stone has some age before going to the effort and expense of having my stone tested by a Gemologist.

Cheers

Michael

Posted by: Brettm

It has been confirmed that the Chinese did not use drills until well into the 20th century

I assume here you mean electrical drills, but then that would seem obvious, as they hadn't been invented until the 20th century. Can you clarify what you mean?

Drilling, i.e. hand drilling with bamboo and abrasives, and sometimes with a bow, is a practice that goes back many thousands of years, to the Hongshan culture or thereabouts. By the early Qing (possibly earlier) they had pedal driven drills that sat horizontally, like a modern lathe.

I know the item on offer from Chamberlain Antique's.

His one in all probability dates to the ming period judging by the carving therein.

It is currently at about half of what I believe it should bring. Very subjective.

There is an old saying amongst jade collectors. If you show a Jade item to six collectors you will get twelve different opinions.

I can see where you are heading with this post, but please allow me to state the following.

Your jade plaque is a dirty grey in colour. The one from Joshua is getting very close to mutton fat colour. There is a big difference between pricing of dirty grey and mutton fat. The later is pure white in colour. Best way to determine is by laying said down on a white sheet of paper.

I believe your plaque has age to it and probably dates to the late qing period. It is not in my opinion a Ming period jade. Ming plaques and earlier have tendicy to be three dimensional. But not all are or were made like that. In some cases they would carve two plaques to go back to back giving said a real depth.

If your item was mutton fat jade then I would suggest you have it appraised. Since your is not mutton the price plummets quite a bit.

I don't know what you intent to do with it. That's whether you keep or sell it.

Leonard Joel's have a gemologist on board, so you will be able to get a free appraisal just time. If you want another that can provide you with a certificate to what the stone is I can help with a name in the city if Melbourne center. He will not be able to determine the age.

Mark

Dear Craig,

You question to me is the one or one of the ones that I am seeking answers to. It is generally accepted due to the hardness of jade that metal drills were not of sufficient hardness to drill jade until the early 20th century. Chinese art experts tell us such drills were not used in China until the 1930's.  That seems to mean that items that have obvious drill marks are classed as modern. What I am trying to establish is how then did they manage to create such wonderful objects particularly those objects that are deeply carved and undercut. Your suggestion seems perfectly plausible to me you are correct the principal of the drill is very old indeed. I guess it's more what was used at the pointy end of the drill that interests me. If as you have suggested they used a kind of paste made of jade dust with a hand operated drill so the operation was more like grinding given the hardness of jade it must of taken years to create some of the objects I have seen.  I was not questioning your post just looking for confirmation or further suggestions.

Thanks and Regards

Michael       

Dear Craig,

You question to me is the one or one of the ones that I am seeking answers to. It is generally accepted due to the hardness of jade that metal drills were not of sufficient hardness to drill jade until the early 20th century. Chinese art experts tell us such drills were not used in China until the 1930's.  That seems to mean that items that have obvious drill marks are classed as modern. What I am trying to establish is how then did they manage to create such wonderful objects particularly those objects that are deeply carved and undercut. Your suggestion seems perfectly plausible to me you are correct the principal of the drill is very old indeed. I guess it's more what was used at the pointy end of the drill that interests me. If as you have suggested they used a kind of paste made of jade dust with a hand operated drill so the operation was more like grinding given the hardness of jade it must of taken years to create some of the objects I have seen.  I was not questioning your post just looking for confirmation or further suggestions.

Thanks and Regards

Michael       

Sorry Brett,

I ran out of time on the last Post!

If you have a say mutton fat boulder with carvings on both sides and was period say 19th century and about 6" in height that boulder would be worth about 100k plus at a high end auction house. If you also had an identical one but in jasper/kingfisher jade it would struggle to bring $20,000.

The price of mutton fat or pure white jade has really taken off over the last decade or two. Where as its poor cousin Mr green has stagnated over the same period. Height was 2011-2012.

Different colours of both jadeite jade and nephrite jade vary enormously. Many factors are placed in order to determine the price.

As I am still using a phone it is very difficult to say one way or the other. I am not convinced about your plaque as to age. Its not clear cut.

Mark

Dear Mark,

I have no intention the sell the Item. I  quite like it plus I like the little stand I know from my own work experience it's not easy carving fret work like that on a small scale.  I did not show the Chamberlain item as a comparison to mine even to my untrained eye I can see that the plaque offered on Ebay  is of far superior quality stone and carving to mine. I am more interested in the methods used by the Chinese to carve jade prior to the advent of powered mechanical tools. Those round holes have me intrigued. I occasional deal with Joel's and I believe you may be referring to' Ronnie ' in the city so I may make use of them not so much from a valuation point more to establish the merit or otherwise of the stone. I am getting to the stage of life where I am getting rid of a lot of clutter and junk. I would like to label the items I keep so when the time comes whoever gets the items next know what they are. An event that I hope is a long way off. Whilst cleaning out the house for our move I came across these items I made at the end of my apprenticeship many years ago. Sadly they have become a little damaged but not to worry they are only made from Masonite they did not let us play with real wood much until we had passed out. 

Thank you for your replies

Michael

Hi Brett,

If you go to google and type in jade carving tools you will see hundreds of articles on both modern and old methods.

It is true that say a intricate jade carving of say a mountain with immortals and other that the time spent would be months not weeks to complete.

Modern carving today can be completed in days or a few weeks at most.

Old carving has a different feel and look to that if modern.

Mark

Michael, here's a short video on old carving techniques. It shows the lathe I mentioned as well as some other methods.

Just to add something else if I may.

Prior to computers and other instruments available today to test or determine jade etc. How did dealers say prior to 1950 determine if it was or wasn't?

Heft, was one way where they would throw the stone in the air and catch it. Jade being very dense. Takes years of practice to master.

Another trick was to rub the jade. If it was smooth and oily etc equates to old method of carving. If the finger stuttered across the surface indicated that item was machine made. These two methods used along side with a loupe 10x.

Just to make the waters even murkier was to do say 70% by drill and finish the remaining 30% or there about by the old methods. Not many done by this way but I have seen a few in my time. Certainly very convincing and difficult to detect.

I was not referring to Ronnie Bauer, but his neighbour a few doors away. Ronnie is good but jade is not really his passion nor his interest. He may have changed said with the upsurge of jade and pricing etc as I have not spoken to him personally for well over 10 years or so. The best one was Marika from Albert Simkiss. Sadley she passed away a few years ago.

Mark

Mark and Craig,

Thank you both very interesting and helpful. 

Michael