Hi,

Photos of the base and mouth would be helpful, but I would probably still say no, definitely not - in my opinion anyway. The work would have to be far better than this. If you look up a piece sold at a major auction house or in a museum and compare them, I think you will see the difference.

The people are always a good clue, they should look and feel like individuals, also if you look at the second picture to the left of the ring, you will see a problem with the quality. 

Julia

I agree with Julia's post. Definitely not imperial. Looks like Showa period 1926-1989. 

Mark 

I know it’s 19th century this is a Satsuma from same potter

Sorry, I can't enlarge that and I am on a small screen. I can see enough to tell there is a difference in quality and the one at the auction does not have those moulded rings etc down the sides which one finds on so many cheaper products especially in the period Mark mentioned.

I would be very interested in how you know it is the same potter and do you mean painter as well or are you separating the two processes? Is the base marked?

Here is top and base the reason I said same artist/potter because the markings are same on both?

Thanks for the photos. It may well be that this is an attempt to copy that piece. It is certainly better than a lot of the pieces one sees but there are big differences in quality. I hope you don't mind, but here is a link to the comparison. Please note the detail of the faces and the differences between them. The faces on your vase are of a type.

Then, look too, at the gold. On yours it seems to be a statement as though to say " hey, I am satsuma" and it has been carelessly applied. On the auction vase, there is more of it, it looks better quality, more muted, less ostentatious and it very much part of the whole design.

I already pointed out one area where the pattern quality is lacking, you can see the same thing on the base of yours. Look at the border where the gold pattern does not stay between the lines properly. Both these issues make me think of printing. I think you will notice that the general pattern on the base is not as well done either.

I hope this helps you see what I am seeing and why I don't think yours is a valuable piece. 

https://www.cambiaste.com/uk/auction-0229/a-satsuma-porcelain-vase-with-wise-men-life-sc.asp

Being fairly new to collecting over the past couple of years I have been working to develop an eye for how to tell the difference between new and old, high or low quality pieces. It is now getting to where I think I can do an okay job some of the time, but many are still tricky for me. If I look at some famille rose Chinese vases with figures from the 1970's and compare them to 18th or even 19th C/early 20th C examples I can see the differences now pretty easily. The figures on the newer pieces almost have a cartoonish color, sort of neon or plastic looking/feeling. The same difference I can notice on these Japanese Satsuma pieces when comparing new to old, high to low quality. There are other differences in quality related to the colors and design like how Julia pointed out. When we really focus on the finer details the quality differences become more clear. But I think in assessing pieces I am finding it useful to soften my eyes first and take in the whole piece and get a feel of it at an initial glance and distance, and then after that zoom in on the details and begin examining the different areas in detail. When I go into an antique store I sometimes find that certain pieces now will jump out at me as I scan the room. The more time I spend looking at high level auction and museum examples the more my eye is becoming attuned to that level of quality, and I know to seek it out intuitively because my mind and eye associate it with being something special. Also, some of it is based on what we are attracted to, similar to seeing beauty in human forms. (uh oh, I feel myself getting philosophical....)We have certain things that we are drawn towards when we know what we like. For human attraction this seems to come naturally, and we just know it when we see it, but in antique collecting I think much of it has to be learned at first, and then later can become more natural. It's also similar to food in the sense that we can become addicted to poor quality food or we can develop a connection and standard with quality. Either way can happen so it is up to us to make the choices that will go one way or the other. At any rate, I think the process is extremely interesting and fun, and I could probably talk about it all day. But alas, time to get ready to go to work so I can make some money with which to go buy more antiques. Cheers!  John   

My vase was looked at today by a Japanese fellow he collects Satsuma he translated the vase and the story. It’s not a copy 100% authentic and it’s late 19th century Meiji period early 20th. The vase is signed twice one is family crest and the artist’s signature but was not legible. The marking on the base made Kyoto Japan by Yasuda Company. So the gentleman said this is a Kyoto Satsuma vase this work shop employed many decorators of all levels. Most famous was Ryozan. Kyoto wares can differ from amazing to ordinary and artist levels were the same. He believe the artist for my pot is Shuzan he was known for the bumpy heads on male figures. My vase is worth about $1500 if it was Ryozan $20000 plus. Kyoto Satsuma is not true Satsuma as he explained the quality difference in Satsuma is different and only Satsuma made in that region is as such.

@lotusblack Brian, I don't know the Japanese fellow's level of experience with Satsuma, but all too often we collectors have our opinions reaffirmed by gravitating to those who offer favorable praise, rather than less favorable scrutiny. It's natural, but you should reflect on why you are embracing the Japanese fellow's assessment versus Julia's.

Why mention that the fellow is Japanese? Is it because Satsuma is a Japanese style of ceramic, so being Japanese he is more qualified than Julia?

I don't think that is your intention, but you should be able to see from my question that your defense of the age/quality of your vase is lacking some merit. 

It is a very nice looking vase, but definately not imperial due to less than superb execution - especially the faces and overall loose design.

If you feel it is 19th c., that's not unreasonable, but generally the quality produced during the Meiji period was much better than your vase shows.

As far as I know Shuzan workshop was prolific during the late Meiji period through to the early Showa period 1926-1989. 

Your Satsuma styled vase is definitely not consistent with other works either signed by said artist/workshop or others during the Meiji period 1868-1912. The styling differered immensely between late Meiji and early Showa periods. It's worth noting for instance that during the 20's we had the art deco movement that greatly influenced styles made in various countries including Japan for export. The time difference between late Meiji and early Showa is only about 20 years or so. The Japanese collector that Brian asked thought late 19th century early 20th century. What's early is subjective but the pre WW2 is certainly not out of the question as being early 20th century. Most certainly in my opinion the roaring 20's which fell between the late Taisho early Showa periods. 

Shuzan workshops as far as I know and I stand to be corrected were not members of the elite imperial workshops such as Fukagawa. Even that said not all of Fukagawa works are imperial works. Only a small number were made for imperial service. For instance the pale blue vase I posted a little while ago that I purchased from Ben Janssens on the UK. 

Unfortunately I am unable to post any further information about Shuzan's history. Perhaps if @JRN logs in he can provide us with his valuable input. 

Mark 

@greeno107 let me tell you from my view I came to this sight because I was hoping that people with my same passion would be able to help with some of the challenges I face with collecting but my experience here has really been negative I actually feel talked down to when I’m just asking questions and to throw the race card at me is insulting this forum actually has made me feel bad about my passion and yes I’m going to ask someone that is experienced for a second opinion. But I shouldnt have to explain myself I was just trying to share information but from now on I’ll just keep to myself. 

@lotusblack I think there are a lot of passionate, and more importantly knowledgable, collectors in this group.

My observation of your mentioning that you received advice from a 'Japanese' fellow was not a suggestion that you are racist, but you did bring it up, and I just want to be clear that one's ethnicity does not pre-ordain their knolwedge as more credible because of it.

It would be a bad choice to ask me for advice on American art, despite being born and raised in the USA.

The fact is this is that it is fairly common that such assumptions are made...falsely.

I did say that I did not feel that it was your intention, but if I still hurt your feelings, my apologies.

However, I don't see any indication that anyone was talking down to you - disagreement is not talking down, it is part of the learning process.

Posted by: @lotusblack

@greeno107 let me tell you from my view I came to this sight because I was hoping that people with my same passion would be able to help with some of the challenges I face with collecting but my experience here has really been negative I actually feel talked down to when I’m just asking questions and to throw the race card at me is insulting this forum actually has made me feel bad about my passion and yes I’m going to ask someone that is experienced for a second opinion. But I shouldnt have to explain myself I was just trying to share information but from now on I’ll just keep to myself. 

Brian, I am so sorry you felt I was talking down to you. I feel dreadful because that is not what I am like, I was genuinely trying to show you why I disagreed with your view. I know text/email messages can come over badly and I apologise if this has, but I assure you of my good intentions.

It is very easy to feel got at if you believe in something that everyone else thinks is not as good as you think it is. It is easy to feel your view is ignored or not valued. It is so easy to read the wrong tone into something. I often feel the same (I do a bit right now!) but I am still here because I know that the main issue is not what is said but the medium through which it is said, also if I leave, it is me that loses out!

I certainly don't want you to feel the same way because of me; I hope you will stay and keep sharing your views with us - that is how we all learn.

Posted by: Julia

I do a bit right now

Just to be clear, nothing to do with anything you said! I don't want to make things worse. 😊