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Hi all,
I hope you all are doing well. I've really enjoyed hunting for this pattern, and love having them in my collection. This is the newest bowl I've acquired, hoping it's late Edo/early Meiji. I have concerns about it, however:
1) The underglaze ring around the inner center ship looks really watery and uneven.
2) Some areas of the green and black enamels are crazing/crackling.
3) The foot is oddly trimmed, where it exhibits the Daishoji Imari beveled foot rim, but the glazed and unglazed portions are beveled to the bowl rather than just the glazed foot.
4) Numerous areas of enamel loss and chips.
5) Waves are poorly/hastily done, but also look worse due to enamel loss.
I think enamel loss might have been common in some Chinese porcelain, but I haven't found an example online that exhibited enamel loss or crazing like my bowl does in Japanese porcelain. It's also my understanding that this pattern is heavily faked, so I'm unsure if these characteristics are of age or deceit. I was the only bidder and won it at a relatively affordable price too on eBay. I should also add that when I first handled it, it felt fake, but that was the same feeling I had handling the five-piece Kangxi set I posted earlier, so my radar might be off on that.
Some things I think going for it are the significant wear to gilt on the outside of the bowl where I think it would've been handled more. Also, the mark on the bottom is covered up due to the sticker, but it looks like the generic kotobuki mark. Any help is much appreciated!
Here are the photos:
Kindly,
John
Hello John,
Would like to see a photo of the base, and the foot rim please.
Michael
Hi Michael,
Thanks for looking at the bowl. Here are some more photos of the footrim and base:
I have the small Daishoji book in front of me, and it bears a striking resemblance to #46, but none of the pieces in that book show a foot that is beveled similarly to this bowl. The unglazed portion of the foot rim begins at the black/dark blue line, but there is also an uneven line of glaze on one section that looks like the potter painted on a wheel. Also the footrim was almost pitch black when it arrived, but it cleaned up to what you see. I think that color might've been from a stand rather than being artificial.
Let me know if you need a specific angle.
Kindly,
John
What’s under the label?
Hi Brian,
I'm a little cautious with removing labels, but I tried and the mark appeared after wetting it. It does appear to be a kotobuki mark, which appears on old pieces as well as newer ones. My late 20th-century fish plate has the same mark, although a bit differently styled.
Here's the mark on this bowl:
Here's the mark on my newer fish plate:
John
Hi John,
I am not an expert on the subject, but after comparing your bowl to some Meiji pieces I have, your dish seems fine for Meiji. Just my opinion...
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
Hi Todd,
Thank you for taking the time to compare it with yours. I think I'm more comfortable with that rather than it being Edo period. I didn't have any other similar pieces to compare it to (other than the bowl in my profile picture), but I would love to grow my own black ships collection.
Kindly,
John
@bartholin The later ones are called Gold Imari, might Google that and see when they started, I love your bowl with the red headed Dutchmen. Sharon
Hi Sharon,
I'm glad you liked this bowl! I think it was a fun find. I'm a surprised no one else bid on it. Also, I was under the impression that later copies of this pattern could also be made in China very recently, and done remarkably well. I showed the bowl in my profile picture to some folks on the gotheborg forum and they seemed to think it was late 20th century Japanese or even Chinese.
I'm still trying to learn how to date Edo period pieces from Meiji or later.
Kindly,
John
Hello John,
Thanks for the additional photo's of the base. Very nice item you have there. From the way the foot rim is cut and the overall quality my opinion is that the plate is not Daishoji. As you know from your experience on other forums attributing items as Daishoji is fraught with difficulties not only in the west but within Japan it's self due to the lack of documentation, reference books etc. Most items I have seen that have a more definite attribution to Daishoji the foot rim is cut a different angle and the white glaze that runs down the inside edge of the the foot rim to the flat central area has a slight sea green color. And generally the over all decoration is of a very high standard that is a class above the run of the mill. Not trying to suggest your plate is just run of the mill, it is very attractive. From the photo's think your plate is more likely to be Arita in origin. The forth photo of the base the foot rim appears to be rounded at the top pretty certain that's an indication of the Arita Kilns. As far as dating well that's another minefield. The Edo period lasted 264 years and for most of that period foreigners were banned from setting foot in Japan. Prior to the Edo there was some trade between Japan and the west mainly the Portuguese. There was some trade with the Dutch in the early 1600's from the Island of Dejima. This trade is know as the Nanbam Trade there is lots of information on this trade on the internet. Foreigners were often depicted on these export wares with very large noses and red hair. This trade ran from the 1500's to perhaps the first 20 years of the 1600's. I don't think your plate dates from this period due to the colors and the very dark and flat blue under glaze blue . The depiction of foreigners in this way was revived in the very late Edo, through the Meiji and later in export wares, so in my opinion your plate dates to the 19th or early 20thc. The way the mark is done would seem to indicate more 20thc than 19th. This type of thing is very popular and is still made today, and as you have found out elsewhere copies are being made in China but I don't think you have to worry about that with your plate. Of course I could be wrong I am only what you might call book learnt you really need to have physically handled or at least seen many items in the flesh to give definite opinions.
Michael
Hi John,
I like it!
I have a black ship plate that Peter appraised as early 19th c. and I'm happy to share photos of it if it would help, but you have such examples too so not sure if it would help in dating your bowl. The foot rim on your bowl is different than my plate but then again it's a bowl. The details and colors seem to be similar but you're right about the waves. The gold scrolls next to the dragons are also a little different.
Thanks for sharing and good luck!
SW
Thank you Michael,
You've given me a wealth of information, and I appreciate your insight, as always. I'm a bit disappointed that the bowl isn't Daishoji Imari, nor Edo period, but it's been a great learning experience either way. I can certainly see the lower quality in my bowl compared to some online. I'll keep your pointers in mind in the future as I hunt for one! You are right, there are so few resources available for this area.
John
Hi Steve,
I'd love to see your plate! Always love seeing examples to help me learn, and it would be especially helpful given Peter's evaluation.
I'm currently trying to compile a database of "black ships" pieces that are dated by experts to help with comparative research, so I'd also appreciate it if I could store yours, too.
Kindly,
John
Hi John,
Here you go!
The foot rim seems whiter and smoother than your bowl with a little grit on the inside, and the plate has one spur mark where the character mark is.
I took those photos outside, so the plate is actually not as bluish as it appears here.
I inherited this from a friend years ago and I had assumed it was modern of mass production, so it was a delightful surprise to get Peter's opinion!
-Steve
@steve Is that crest for an individual? I Googled crest for VOC and did not find that one, so maybe personal arms of the owner? Lovely example. Sharon
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