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Hi all,
I’m looking for some help in honing my skills. Whilst I don’t think this item is necessarily anything ‘special’, it is the kind of item that beginners like myself may be drawn to? My first impression is that it’s a very attractive jar; it seemingly tells a story and, in my opinion, seems quite well painted.
BUT, am I missing something stylistically? Particularly in the way the people and horse are painted?
I don’t think it’s very old, late 19th century perhaps? Having said that, it could be mid 20th century but has had a hard life?!
Any and all impressions, opinions and corrections are welcome!
Nic
Forgot to add that the footrim is cut flat, with some fritting and kiln grit. I didn’t pay much attention to the mark, but it looks like it may be stamped in overglaze red. It has either worn a bit or the initial marking may not have been done very carefully.
Nic
To me this a typical 1970s or 1980s piece and has very little to recommend it , so I'm not sure whether you are being serious in your comments!
There are lots and lots of similar ones on ebay , in flea markets etc., with various combinations of these elements.
The painting , for example of the boy/man on the lid, is very poor, imo; the style and shape of the women's hair is odd and unbalanced. The horse looks like it has large body/neck and short legs , but that could be just an effect of photography and the shape of the jar.
Also , the way the wall, window, rocks and interior details are done is very crude and awkward...in garish colours
Finally, the border around the neck of the jar does not match or harmonise with the border around the base.
As you can tell, I don't like it, but these are collected , I guess, for their kitsch charm and difference.
tam
I agree with Tam. Apart from the other details that he already mentioned: if ladies' hair is just a black mass without details it usually means a production in the 1960/70s. Or it's Japanese, which isn't the case here.
Birgit
Dear Tam and Shinigami,
Thanks for the observations, very helpful. And thanks for the tip about the hair!
I was serious I’m afraid! It’s not that I thought the piece was excellent, only that I still can’t see the difference in quality between this and many older pieces I’ve seen. Of course, it’s quite easy to differentiate between this and an excellent piece, but not so easy when comparing it with more run-of-the-mill pieces that happen to be older.
I think this is one of the biggest obstacles facing a new collector: not being able to differentiate between a bad 20th century piece and an ‘OK’ 18th or 19th century piece? It seems highly nuanced to the untrained eye.
I will look for an example to highlight what I mean.
Thanks for you patience!
Nic
Ok,
I’ve only chosen items that from Bidamount Marketplace.
This, to my eye, is better:
These, to my eye, are not (decoration wise):
Where am I going wrong?
Hi Nic,
at all times there were better or lesser qualities made. It makes no sense to compare Qianlong export with a 1970s jar, it's like comparing apples and pears. Tommy Eklöf's book of faces might be a very good investment for the start. It helps you to judge how old items are approximately, at least if there are people in the painting. With a bit of practice and time you'll also be able to discern good and lesser painting quality.
Birgit
Hi Birgit,
Thanks for that. So is the idea to compare the quality of a piece only within the period it was made? So to compare with the best of, say, the 20th century? And am I right in thinking one should immediately discount anything after, say, 1950?
I have looked up Eklöf’s book. Cheapest I can find is over £100. I’ve saved the link and will buy it if and when I show the slightest natural aptitude for collecting Chinese porcelain!
Nic
Hi Nic,
you should always buy what you like personally. I only bought items that had a special appeal to me. I loved the motif or the painting qualitiy or the rareness or a funny detail, whatever. There are of course mass items like Qianlong export in pink and orange (like the tea pot you show above). I always wanted one of these. There are quite a lot of them on the market and they come in different painting qualities. I had set my mind on the lady with the falcon and searched for two years before I found one that I liked. Yes, you can say that I compared quality and condition and didn't buy before I was absolutely content.
As to the question until what time items should be collected, that's quite interesting. In some old porcelain books from the 1980s and before they dismissed the whole 19th century as not worthy to collect. Meanwhile Republic is deemed collectable, in a few decades the best pieces of the 20th century will also be collectable. What will never be collectable from the 20th century in my opinion are fakes and low quality mass items, so keep away from them.
Best regards
Birgit
Birgit
Dear Nic,
what do you mean by “wrong” about the pieces that you show above? All the three pieces are 18th century and nice.
All what you have to do, IMO, is to train the eye in recognizing the styles. This will come naturally after looking at a certain number of pieces, knowing of which period they are; of course, being sure that they are authentic.
This is possible through Forums, books, museums and reputable auction houses.
I have seen novices to whom the book of Eklof has not been helpful, just because they had not a trained eye, in other words they were not yet able to recognize the style.
Give it a bit of time and you will see that it will come naturally.
Giovanni
Out of the three pieces shown by Nic that he chose from the Bidamount marketplace , the bottom right piece with tomato red and lighter blue enamel looks Japanese and 19th century?
Hi Giovanni,
I only meant that I must be going ‘wrong’ because to my eye the modern ginger is better decorated than the teapot and the jug. Admittedly, the tea caddy is well painted compared to the others. So, to an amateur, the ginger jar is perhaps more attractive. But as Birgit explained, it makes no sense to compare the 20th century jar with 18th century pieces. I guess my point was to try and explain how confusing it is for beginners because some new piece look better painted than some genuine pieces. So as well as age, quality etc. One has to contend with personal taste!
but I think your taste changes when your eye improves? But I don’t know if I will ever like the teapot!
Hi Carl,
It is on Bidamount Marketplace as 18th century Chinese jug. But yes, the painting is garish to my eye.
Thanks everyone!
Nic
Ooops! Hi Nic, I must apologize, I have not seen that it was possible to enlarge the pictures, so my comment was only meant to say that all the peices were 18th century.
Now that I have enlarged them I see that you are right, really awful. I think that I have never seen a teapot of that type so badly painted.
Giovanni
Hi Giovanni,
I’m so relieved! I honestly thought I couldn’t see the beauty of it because I’m inexperienced!
?
NicDan, as a relative novice to Chinese porcelain, I can sympathize with your plight, it all makes sense till it doesn’t. My strategy is start with the smaller items and a particular aspect or period. I chose to start with provincial Ming. My little collection of a half dozen or so items aren’t very expensive as individual items or as a collection but it does allow me to hadle real Ming items. As an antique guy (not my age?) I happen to like antique items with what I call a life, some thing that has been used and does show a bit of patina and provincial Ming does just that.
After learning from the fine and patient folks here I now know what I’m looking at about sixty percent of the time, the other fourty percent turned out to be Qing wares not Ming. When I started down this path a year or so ago I was one hundred percent wrong.
Be patient buy what you like and it will come to you eventually. On occasion test your self against the smart folks. I can hardly imagine how long the smart folks have been doing this to know so much.
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