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Hi All,
Would be ideal to hear opinions on a possible date as for this porcelain.
For some reason I have that small idea in my head - that's possible for the Vietnamese market (the blue color is dull a little bit in my eyes) But I am guessing, the seller did pictures in front of artificial light, I am guessing that colors are off, what's in reality. Not sure tought.
I would go with 18/19th, maybe modern?
It's around 28/29cm in diameter.
I did purchase it, so I guess there is no way back, no matter what. The price paid - I just couldn't to leave this, just sitting there for that price 🙂
@Audrius
I will beinterested to hear what others think, but my initial feeling is that the scales are poorly done. I have seen a couple of other dishes of this type and they were far more in keeping with what I would expect a 19th c dragon skin to look like.
I am very happy as always to learn something new, but I do find the base a bit odd - is that a genuine collection-type number, or there to deceive?
Julia, I completely agree with you in regards to the pattern as for the 19th century, looks odd. Not sure about a number on a base.
I think this bowl/charger can stretch back to earlier than the 19th century and probably we should consider this as in an area of the 18th century or modern.
And if this by any chance 18th century made, very finely painted pattern as for this type of ware in my personal opinion.
Seller didn't have any other Chinese bits as for sale, just random stock of everything, I think this reduces the possibility that this porcelain was pushed/sold as antique while modern in real - but it doesn't mean that's really antique (if you know what I mean).
P.S. if i am not mistaken, possibly - on a foot rim (next to a number on a base), looks like a trace of worn number as well. But maybe it just me.
@Audrius
I just did a search on 18th c dragon dish and loads came up- even some in the same style described as japanese and an English . It is obviously a well known pattern.
So whereas my experience of Chinese dragons in 18th c are not like these, maybe that style of dragon is ok for that period, however, I still feel yours is modern.
The style of dragon is Japanese like, but rendered mostly in the Guangxu style of the late 19th c.
This kind of bowl, if genuine, would come from a regular kiln (people's kiln), so one would expect the surface of the slip shows irregularities, an rust colored foot ring, some piling from the cobalt that resulted in slip retractions or burst. None of these traits can be found on the your bowl (at least not in these photos).
So, as others have already said, your bowl is a copy...probably late 20th c.
The perfect looking surface makes me too think it's modern. For me the strange dirtied bottom and the pseudo museum inventory number unfortunately cross the border from copy to fake. That doesn't mean your actual seller is dishonest but the first seller of this plate was.
Birgit
In the last 5 years, this kind of charger with this pattern are copied very very often. I have watched a couple of hiding camera videos from Jingdezhen and saw similar chargers several times.
This kind of dishes with unglazed bottom are mostly made during the Yongzheng period. The pattern is called "dragon across the wall", because the dragon is painted from the outside across the rim into the inside of the dish. Very classical pattern.
About yours I'm not convinced. From the first glance it looks really well done. But if you look into the details, you see something strange.
Birgit has already pointed out. The surface, the bottom and the strange number ...
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Something in my brain is saying Vietnamese,even I& the motif is obviously Chinese.
Vic
Plates with this motif has been made for a long period of time, with some changes in the way of painting.
The style of the dish in question is that of the Yongzheng period, as said by Xin.
The picture below is showing it side by side with my one, same size, which is surely Yongzheng. You can see that the style of the dragon and of the clouds is very similar.
These plates where, for some reason that is unknown to me, most often used in funeral rite, being buried with the deceased owner. In fact, most of them are carrying a name, either incised in the glaze or, most often, written in ink on the unglazed base.
I am posting a picture of the back of the dish in question. The encircled detail seems to be a remnant of such type of ink inscription.
My plate has an incised short inscription on the front, and the same inscription in ink on the back. Besides that, it has a very long incised inscription all around the back, describing the life of the owner, who has born during Kangxi and died under Qianlong. Hence, the dating is correct.
Said all that, the plate in question looks genuine, and I would say that all in all it looks ok, but there are some points that must be taken into account.
It must be considered the question raised by Julia, about the crossed lines. The scales of the dragon on my plate are individually made.
Another point, that is not looking as it should be, is the unglazed foot and base, that are unusually dark.
Is it just dirty? It doesn’t seem so IMO; the back is not really looking as it should be, but that can’t be said for sure.
With the above two points in mind, what is not good in the style of decoration must be judged more severely. Hence, the more simplified lines, the way that paws and nails are painted, and especially the half dragon on the back of the dish, are raising serious doubts. Most probably it is a copy. If so, a very well done one.
Kind regards,
Giovanni
This is very interesting! I would normally swear that the bug eyes of the dragon are a sure sign that the dragon was Guangxu, but looking at Giovanni's plate, the eyes are even more bugged out and he dates his to Yongzheng.
However, Google has found me a link that shows that a similar discussion on this very topic seems to occured in 2009 on the Asian Art Forum. Bill Harding participated in that discussion, along with a few other folks I've conversed with over the years.
To my eyes, Giovianni's plate is better rendered, but I honestly would think that it was late 19th c. based upon the rendering of the dragon...but since he owns the plate knows what the back looks like, then I accept his assessment on his word.
Here's the link to the Asian Art Forum discussion....it really seems to have covered all the elements of this discussion and has some very good photos:
https://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=35868
Dear Greeno,
I have read what said in the discussion linked by you.
There Chris Sun says that the scales of the dragon on that dish are cross hatched. It is not true. They appears as being cross hatched, but looking carefully they are individual made.
Look especially at the tail of the dragon on the back side. You must concentrate on each scale, not on the whole pattern. On each scale, you will see that the left side of the scale is rounded while the right side is made by two straight lines.
The right answers there are made by KK.
He mentioned a Chinese book, which I have seen before, that dates the dish, according to the appearance of the dragon, to Yongzheng.
I too was convinced that these dishes were 19th century but the book is right.
The dating of my dish is provided by the inscription on the back, that I said before.
The owner born during Kangxi and died during Qianlong, so if not Yongzheng, the dish should be early Qianlong, because it has not being purchased for the funeral, having clear signs of use.
Regards,
Giovanni
I didn't log in at bidamount for a few days. Such active discussion. Thank you all, for your inputs and toughts!
@Audrius
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