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25 cm across. What do you think?
Not my area of thought atm. Looking at this plate I think it is not from said period but perhaps a later copy. The seal mark looks to my eye to be a little stiff in said strokes. Perhaps Stuart or others could post their thoughts.
Is this something you already own or looking to purchase/other?
Mark
Hi Avatar/Cory -
For comparison, attached images of three base shards with Hongzhi marks recovered from the Imperial kiln site at Zhushan in 2004, and a green enamelled Hongzhi m/p dish, D. 20 cm, H 4.5 cm, FD 12 cm, with incised dragons/clouds, from the Gugong, Beijing ...
Note the difference in the painting styles, and also the drawing of the mark, especially the ‘Hong’ and ‘Zhi’ characters, all very different then the dish you posted ...
Stuart
Many thanks for the feedback.
The pictures are copied from the UK auctioneer mallams' site, where it is undated and sold well above the estimate. https://www.mallams.co.uk/sales/cheltenham/bs010519/view-lot/76/ This is the six character Hongzhi mark I can find online, which come closest when comparing the caligraphic style, appearing on a blue an white dragon dish sold at Sotheby's. http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/pilkington-collection-of-chinese-art-hk0639/lot.28.html
Hi Avatar/Cory -
Mallams does not describe this piece as mark and period and, although I don’t know the condition, the estimate and price achieved would indicate that it was not ...
I have seen damaged but similar authentic Hongzhi m/p pieces obtain £60-80,000 at auction in recent years ...
Stuart
I agree with Stuart assessment of this so-called plate of dubious origins.
In the pictures one can see evidence of a hairline crack.
Just purely bidders getting caught up in the moment of what might have been versus reality. I see this time and time again. It never ceases to amaze me. 🤔
In my opinion based on posted pictures if one looks clearly the porcelain paste is neither pure white nor is it off-white. It is sugary-white consistent with later period productions.
Mark
Thanks again Stuart and Mark.
Yes, I know Mallams did not describe the plate as Hongzhi period. That's why I posted it here, to see what people would say. But there was also a yellow and green dragon bowl with Zhengde mark described as possibly Ming dynasty but that sold for "only" £10,000. https://www.mallams.co.uk/sales/cheltenham/bs010519/view-lot/181/ A similar bowl sold for £40,000 at Christie's. https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-fine-green-and-yellow-enamelled-dragon-bowl-5499670-details.aspx
And there was a celadon ewer dated to the 18th/19th century that also sold for £10,000 but that probably dates to the early Ming dynasty and could sell for £100,000 on a good day at Christie's. https://www.mallams.co.uk/sales/cheltenham/bs301019/view-lot/82/
@ avatar
Not my area of thought as of yet but from my limited observations I see that the imperial yellow glaze appears to be very harsh. The way the dragon is portrayed is a little bit contrived and stiff. Lastly although not prevalent in known examples to, to much extend is the lack of any weathering marks. I understand imperial pieces in the palace would have sat in the same spot almost untouched. But in private hands I find it almost inconceivable that said would not have been moved or handled over the different generations or more importantly owners etc. The presant one looks very new imo. I of course could be very wrong with this type of thought etc.
The seal mark lacks fluidity. Very stiff and written without any skill with the calligrapher. Something you would never ever see on genuine examples etc. One only has to look at the 2 examples of the seal mark to the sloppiness. The first mark on the rhd is on an angle. Strange. 🤔
I would after viewing these items from this auction house be very cautious in dealing with them unless they provide Mark and Period guarantee in the terms etc.
Mark
Hi Avatar/Cory -
The ewer sold by Mallams is certainly not early Ming, attached image is of a Longquan ewer/cover, H. 33 cm, from the NPM, Taipei, dated to the early Ming period. Note the differences in design - the Mallams piece is lifeless by comparison ...
The Mallams Zhengde bowl is also not mark/period. Attached images of three pieces with four-character marks recovered from the Imperial kiln site during the 2003/4 and 2014 excavations, and also a unfinished biscuit- fired bowl, MD. 19.9 cm, with dragon and cloud in slip which was discarded as unsatisfactory before completion. Again, note the differences in the writing of the mark - although this did vary during this period - but also the dragon, clouds, flaming pearl and lotus panels - all very different to the Mallams piece ...
Stuart
Apologies - two images with Zhengde marks!!🙄 ...
Stuart and Mark, you might well be right about the the Zhengde marked bowl, I haven't looked much at it, I just noted it in Mallams' sale highlights section together with the celadon ewer so I thought I would post them.
I'm not sure if I agree that the celadon ewer is "certainly not early Ming". The decoration on the ewer at NPM is superb but the decoration on Mallams' ewer compares much better to the example I linked to at Christie's (IMHO) and possibly even better to this one, also from Christie's: https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-carved-longquan-celadon-ewer-early-ming-6095321-details.aspx?from=salesummery&intobjectid=6095321&sid=b452cb8c-2f92-4e4b-9992-e2bbcec4b8e8 Two differences I did notice between Mallams' ewer and the examples I could find online is the shape of the mouth and the way the handle is attached to the neck part but this ewer from Sotheby's has very similar mouth and attachments: http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.2997.html/2008/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-hk0269
/Corey
Sorry to butt in, I know very little about these items but I have been following this with interest (thanks all) and I just wanted to say that for me the Mallam's ewer is way inferior to the others. I am not speaking of the decoration but the form, particularly of the rounded belly. In the Mallam's example the pot almost sags towards the ground whereas the others seem to swell sinuously upwards and outwards. They are so gracefully shaped in comparison to the rather lumpen Mallam's piece which simply isn't as finely potted or as elegant.
That's what I see anyway. I wouldn't mind selling that piece for that amount, but I wouldn't buy it, it looks too stiff and lifeless - as others said.
That's true. A sharp observation. Or at least I hadn't noticed that. But there are Ming porcelain ewers that has the same lumpen form for example these that dates to the Yongle period. My fist thought when I saw Mallams' ewer was actually if it could be of the Yongle period. http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/fine-chinese-ceramics-and-works-of-art-hk0363/lot.1918.html https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/an-important-and-exceptionally-rare-early-ming-5001482-details.aspx
Actually the original reason why I originally"bookmarked" Mellers' auction was because of a couple of sancai jars (lot 101 + 102) stated to be of the tang period and provenanced. They sold for only $500 each if I recall. That would be a very advantageous price since the estimate of similar jars are usually around $8,000 - 10,000 at the major auction houses. And there ere some nice Song pieces which shared the same provenance as you can see. https://issuu.com/mallams/docs/cheltenham_oriental_autumn_18/16 It was onlly because I came across the Hongzhi marked dragon plate that I thought looked interesting I started this thread that now went a little out of control.
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