Hi Guys:)

Thank you so much for your answer, Peter told me that it was fake, a very nice copy, with disproportionate allocation of space, wrong colours, the qianlong mark at the bottom is not engraved deeply enough and is also not proportional, and yeah...:)

otherwise, it was all a scam I think, because the seller told me that I can't see it in person, because she just left the country (sometime...?) and now she is in Spain, BUT... if I pay her 3600 euros (just), she will pay for the post 😀 (there was no talk about money before), and then she can upload it on a 100% secure site, like ebay, etc. where I can buy it 😀 

@greeno107 

I had the same feeling when I checked that piece on the christies, but it was too good to be true:)

@88teo88 good job researching and sharing with us and Peter before pulling the trigger. I feel averting bad buys is almost as satisfying as making great ones.

@88teo88 I have been researching cloisonné for a year now visiting museums buying books reading forums I did learn a trick if you buy a box of crayons rub it back and forth until it is thick with color no paper seeing through just wax. If the enamel on the cloisonné looks dark like the crayon it’s modern if it looks more opaque with particles and mixture it’s older. The older enamels will have solder bubbles and the gilding will be high grade gold powder. The wire will be hammered the connecting parts of the wire will be thick with gold gilt as it pools is the connections.

@88teo88 well, it sure sounds like a scam, but the piece looks good to me.

Why would a scammer use an image of a fake?  I’ve come across the same scam a few times, but they use photos if a genuine piece, then try and run off with your money without sending your item - usually some crazy explanation as to why you can’t see the piece in person.

Better luck next time!

@88teo88 I also see some pattern shown in much recent items. See attached modern jar (made in China) with an older pattern

@lotusblack,

Hi Brian,

Interesting technique. But I am confused here with your wording.

What do you mean by 'no paper seeing through just wax'?

Do you rub the crayon on the cloissonne and what do you do with the paper? 

Mark 

@imperialfinegems Mark where you can’t see the paper though the wax of the crayon.

@imperialfinegems I’m not familiar with the technique that Brian is describing, but I think what he is suggesting is that you color match a crayon with that of color of your enamel- then, apply the crayon thickly to paper. And, if the color shares a similar waxy opaque appearance, then it is a modern copy.

@lotusblack, Brian, if I’ve completely misunderstood, my apologies… please advise.

What I can say about dating the age of cloisonné is this:

The enamel of early cloisonné is glass, The color, although opaque, captures light and has a certain glow when held in bright sunlight.

Because applying glass to the surface of curved vessel is such a complicated process, pieces from the Ming have a lot of impurities mixed into the enamel, and a lot of bubbles and dark flecks occur.

The colors improved in the mid Qing, but not so much the bubbles - likely the adhesive used to hold the powdered enamel in place had something to do with that.

Modern pieces, as Brian points out, appear to have a waxy appearance, not lusterous (like an old stain glass window) that genuinely old cloisonné has.  I suspect modern enamels likely use wax as an adhesive which may in part explain why they often feel waxy.

The nature of the core and wire work is important, too.  Generally, the Qianlong pieces used a rather thin copper core for both the body and adornments (such as handles) which were hammered (repousse).

The gold applied to the copper is of very high luster - wear should be visible on high contact edges.

And while some modern pieces copy the designs of earlier pieces, the thinness of the wire is rarely copied.  It might require side by side comparison, but once you see the difference in thickness of early cloisonné compared to modern, you shouldn’t fall prey to fakes.

Now, if modern fakers have succeeded in making near perfect copies of Qianlong work, given the complexity of making cloisonné, I think the pieces themselves might have value worthy of collection as ‘revival’ down the road.  The process is expensive and time consuming.

Hello

This vase was sold 8000euros at eBay few days ago. The actual seller uses original photos from the auction, Or its a not paid item. Warning.

 8

Thank you:)

could you send me the link? I'm curious who the seller is, and I have also found this vase on 2 other sites:

https://cagliari.bakeca.it/dettaglio/antiquariato-collezionismo/un-bel-piccolo-vaso-cloisonne-cinese-su-oro-h237252793166

https://www.in-vendita.it/r/Details/vaso-cloisonne/vaso%20cloisonne_bakeca_h237252793166

Dear all,

I was the original seller of this item on eBay. To cut a long story short I shipped the vase to the buyer and it has gone missing in the post...

I was quite surprised and interested to see a post here about this vase for sale somewhere else on the internet...

Could the original poster please let me know where they saw this vase for sale - was it a legitimate offering or was the seller just using photos from my eBay listing as a scam?

Please let me know any information you might have

With kind regards

@sanderse did you send it to Chinese USPS?

Hi @lotusblack 

No, this was sent to France using a UK based company

Intrigue in the world of Asian Art, quel surprise, could it be a different one or was it one of a kind?