BidAmount Asian Art News

Auctions Of Chinese and Asian Art, Auction Results News

  • Home
  • Weekly News Letter Page
  • The Forum
  • YouTube
  • plcombs Asian Art
    • Visit plcombs-Chinese-Asian Art
    • About, plcombs Chinese-Asian Art Antique Dealer | Massachusetts
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • A Few Site Pages
  • Recomended Books
  • Blog
  • Sign Up-Global Member Pages
  • Sign In-Global Member Pages
You are here: Home / The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.


Asian art booksBasic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum:  Talk about whatever you want.  You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic.  Maximum image file  size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube,  Vimeo etc.  

NOTE: To post an item or add a new post, click open the category title from the FORUM LIST, and CLICK the Blue ADD TOPIC button. 

Forums
The FORUM List
Help Identify This
Cinnabar Qing or Mi...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Cinnabar Qing or Ming?

 
Page 1 / 2 Next
    Last Post
  RSS

 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 10:06 am  

I read through a post from last year about a lacquer box, but am still having a difficult time determining age. Any thoughts on this 15.5 cm people and landscape vase? Interesting with three background patterns of sky, upside down V and square earth pattern. I assume Qing until convinced of earlier. Is there any way to determine? Weight? Is 5.6 ounces.

01DE442E 4935 4465 A9A1 3B7D1A341F19
22A978B3 639E 44A5 BAD4 0CF89985DC4E
2101E516 B9D1 471C 8E7F 6B602CC6B3FC
0C005458 8D0B 4204 9345 CEF940602C35

 


   
Quote
Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
22/01/2023 11:42 am  

@centralpapottery  This vase is late 19th c. to early 20th c., so Qing.  The way you can tell is actually not too hard once you have actually held/handled a genuine Ming cinnabar.

Start by keeping in mind that Mind cinnabar is about 100 times (mabye 1000 times) more rare than porcelain because it was very dangerous to make (do to having mercury in the lacquer), and required sometimes years to make a single piece (each layer of lacquer requires almost a week to cure,  roughly 100 layers on Ming ware cinnabar piece, and the wood core had to be sufficiently kiln dried that it would not warp/crack (which even after 500 years, they often don't).

The carving on genuine Ming cinnabar is deep, the edges of the the depictions are highly detailed, and the surfaces are quite rounded (no sharp visible cuts).  During the 18th c., the Qianlong emperor tried to recreate Ming style cinnabar, but not terribly succesfully.  Sometimes these pieces are mistaken as Ming, but I think most lacquer specialists (and there are very few) are able to distinguish them from actually Ming.

Your photos are not close up, but I can see that while the design is okay for late 19th c., it has the telltale 'faceted' surface and straight cuts of late Qing work, so absolutely no chance of being Ming.

The close up surfaces of Ming cinnabar are really quite fantastic - they look like carvings of heavily grained wood, each of the layers of lacquer looking like a growth ring in a tree trunk.

ming close up cinnabar

I have only ever owned one Ming cinnabar box, a 4 tier round box that I attempted to sell with Lark Mason a few years back.  It didn't sell, because the photos (despite being good) were not good enough to convice Cinnabar buyers to bid (starting bid was $20,000).

I took the box back, and a year later I sold it to a Chinese dealer who came to the Miami show.  The dealer actually told me he had seen it online on Lark's website, but did not think to fly to NY to view it (and didn't bid), so he was very excited to have the chance to buy it from me directly.


   
Charlotte Ritchie, Brian, Julia and 4 people reacted
ReplyQuote
 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 2:37 pm  

@greeno107 here are a few closeups. I was thinking all genuine cinnabar had the ‘tree ring’ look. The top of the stone to which the pen is pointing has at least 20 layers. So the whole piece is probably more like 30 or so rather than 100. The layers can also be seen on the person seated.

46B8DD98 13C4 4661 862E B8EBE2913DD4
This post was modified 2 years ago 2 times by CentralPApottery

   
Greeno107 reacted
ReplyQuote
 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 2:42 pm  

More

A8952C4E 49AF 411E 9BF1 98B7F4B58272
047D4C90 0F2B 49EB A4CD 259B75DDFECF

 


   
Charlotte Ritchie and Greeno107 reacted
ReplyQuote
 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 2:45 pm  
10B3B7C9 15CE 4C24 BCDC EBB25B23AE93

 

Last few

348E436E 1AA1 4FB7 930B E0D73C2524D3

 


   
Greeno107 reacted
ReplyQuote
lucky
 lucky
(@lucky)
Prominent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 430
22/01/2023 3:05 pm  

1st indication to recognize genuine cinnabar from faux are "bubbles", and from your pictures provided I've seen none on yours. On cheap fakes, you can find bubbles and mold seams as well...All Chinese genuine carved cinnabar have layers, how many supposed to be of layers, personally don't know (if there is a number of layers at all). I do not come across very often to cinnabar in my life.


   
Julia and Adams Asian Art reacted
ReplyQuote
Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
22/01/2023 3:07 pm  

@centralpapottery Yes, all real cinnabar has layers.... the difference is the number/thickness of layers.  As you point out, yours has about 20 layers.  The same depth of carving on a genuine Ming piece would have more than double.  Again...very hard to notice the difference until you've actually handled a Ming piece.


   
Steve, Ming1449, lucky and 1 people reacted
ReplyQuote
 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 3:17 pm  

@greeno107 sorry if I mislead. There is 20 just on that hill. Definitely not saying this is Ming… just showing pictures. Guessing there are at least 30 layers though. In my short search, I haven’t found many Ming vases, mostly boxes or other items. I’ve handled maybe 5 Qing and as far as I know none from Ming.


   
Greeno107 reacted
ReplyQuote
Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
22/01/2023 3:50 pm  

@centralpapottery I did not take your statement as misleading or argumentative.  I could not find a good photo for comparison, but I worked with what I had available.  Take a look...

cinnabar comp

The surfaces of Ming cinnabar are more rounded, which exposes more layers, and the layers are closer together.  Qing cinnabar is flatter, only showing layers where the carving distinguishes the form (person's robe, face, background, etc).

The white arrows point to areas within the major cuts of the carving, and show the rounded nature of the inner carving by light and dark rings of the layers of the cinnabar.

I hope this helps, and good luck finding a genuine Ming cinnabar!  They are quite rare, and many large auction houses mistaken 18th c. pieces copying the Ming style as genuine Ming cinnabar.

 


   
lucky, Julia and Ming1449 reacted
ReplyQuote
 CentralPApottery
(@centralpapottery)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 704
Topic starter 22/01/2023 4:31 pm  

@greeno107 yes, I see what you mean. I think I only have one spot on my whole vase like that which is noticeable. Your photo has a number on one small area. Thanks! Very helpful. Also, mine is only a couple mm deep.


   
ReplyQuote
 Charles Bryan
(@kirby13)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 705
23/01/2023 1:43 am  

I have a few pieces like this that I think are late Qing.  No bubbles, coarse layers.  I have noticed that you have to work really hard to get them to show any color when you do the acetone test; is that the case with the older Ming pieces?   I have often thought that the ca 1900 ones are not really lacquer, but instead some sort of artificial composite.  


   
lucky reacted
ReplyQuote
lucky
 lucky
(@lucky)
Prominent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 430
23/01/2023 2:35 am  

I would assume & I would expect different color of Cinnabar if to talk about 17c or 18c and a little bit more quality & life within carved object. Of course there are exceptions. I mean in general what I would expect.

And now number of layers on earlier examples. thanks Tim for a valuable & informative lesson here!

 

Regards


   
Greeno107 reacted
ReplyQuote
Ronm
 Ronm
(@ronm)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 612
19/04/2023 5:12 pm  

Hello all, I am still about doing more reading than posting. I hope Greeno will not be upset by furthering the discussion on Cinnabar because I just bought my first piece.  

80C10379 F6A2 4342 9243 147CB51A1D4F

I bought this at a very local on line auction, it looked good enough to take a punt in the hope it was real and not resin. Well it turns out it is real cinnabar, I am into it for about $18US so really could not go wrong. It past the nail polish remover test and the layering test

EB4B9BAC 2386 4AA5 9F79 F9835E3EF1B5

it is hand carved

9B8EA443 7C95 4B24 B1CE 9F905720E955
F8480DC6 60A7 4616 99E3 4AEE9F76B88C

my question for those in the know is the age? I have no expectations of it being Ming but hope for it to be late Qing or republic. The bace is unmarked with no enamelling.

Ron


   
ReplyQuote
Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4263
19/04/2023 5:20 pm  

This could be cast resin and it’s a modern reproduction. 


   
ReplyQuote
Steve
 Steve
(@steve)
Famed Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1817
19/04/2023 6:33 pm  

@greeno107 

This information is very helpful.

I am assuming they did make genuine cinnebar in the late Qing, it's just not as high a quality as in the Ming prototypes. 


   
Sharon P reacted
ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2 Next
Forum Jump:
  Previous Topic
Next Topic  

Notice

Weekly Video’s on You Tube, Subscribe Today!

Bidamount on Youtube asian Art news

Hundreds of Online Auction Catalogs

Chinese Art Auction Catalogs

Blog Archive

Global Auction “member pages”, get them all in just one place.

chinese porcelain auctions

Join our weekly newsletter for current eBay Asian Art Listings

Newsletter Sign Up
For Email Newsletters you can trust.

Get Our Thoughts On Any Auction Listing Anywhere, BEFORE You Bid

asian art auction

Click to View the News Letter Page

Asian Art News

Recent Posts

  • Pierre Le-Tan Auction Chinese, Japanese and Islamic Art Paris
  • Investing in Chinese Art Versus Collecting Chinese Art
  • Later Chinese Bronzes of the Song to Qing Dynasty
  • Asia Week In New York City September 2020 The Auctions
  • Japanese and Chinese Art Collection of Brian Page At Ma San Auctioneers
  • Bidit Auctions Fakes of Chinese Art In Marietta Georgia | Opinion
Click Here
Share:
  Forum Statistics
8 Forums
12.4 K Topics
91.9 K Posts
29 Online
7,710 Members

Latest Post: Blue and White box with Xuande mark Our newest member: Brian Fanning Recent Posts Unread Posts Tags

Forum Icons: Forum contains no unread posts Forum contains unread posts

Topic Icons: Not Replied Replied Active Hot Sticky Unapproved Solved Private Closed

Powered by wpForo  Powered by wpForo version 2.4.5

Super Globals

Options and Features



Thanks for visiting "The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art"

If you sell on eBay, or have a shop feel free to post images and descriptions and links.

Check back often for discussion about the latest news in the Chinese art and antique world. Also find out about the latest Asian art auctions at Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonhams and Tajans.

Auction results for: fine porcelain, ceramics, bronze, jade, textiles and scholar's objects.  As well as Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese and other Asian cultures.

Thank you,

Peter Combs


Topics and categories on  The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes. 

The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

Join the BidAmount Chinese and Asian art discussion board and forum today

The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube.  Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings. 

Ancient Chinese Art - Ancient History Encyclopedia

The art of calligraphy - and for the ancient Chinese it certainly was an art - aimed to demonstrate superior control and skill using brush and ink. Calligraphy established itself as one of the major Chinese art forms during the Han dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE), and for two millennia after, all educated men were expected to be proficient at it.

Arts of Asia | The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston

The Museum’s collections of Asian art span nearly five millennia and encompass the cultures of China, the Himalayas, India, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia. In 2007, the Museum launched an initiative to create dedicated galleries for the collection, beginning with a gallery for the arts of Korea ...

Chinese Art: Characteristics, History - Art Encyclopedia

Chinese art is full of symbolism, in that artists typically seek to depict some aspect of a totality of which they are intuitively aware.

China Online Museum - Chinese Art Galleries: Home

China Online Museum is the finest online museum of Chinese art. It features Chinese calligraphy, painting, ceramics, bronzes, carving, and other artworks.

Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art | Christie's

Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art. Overview Upcoming auctions Contacts Auction results ... Christie’s sales of Chinese ceramics and works of art showcase centuries of Chinese history. Held throughout the year in London, New York, Paris and Hong Kong, they attract a wide audience of collectors and connoisseurs vying for pieces as diverse as ...

Fine Chinese Paintings | Christie's

Explore Asian Art Week. Contact the Specialist Department. Chinese Paintings ... Senior Specialist, Head of Sale. [email protected]. Tel:+1 212 641 5760. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 September 2019 at New York. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 ...

Asian Art Week | New York | September 2019 | Christie's

Discover an abundance of must-see art from all corners of a vast continent at Christie’s NY Asian Art Week. From contemporary classical and Chinese paintings to works with exemplary provenance from the Art Institute of Chicago, our Rockefeller Paza galleries will be full of ancient treasures and contemporary masterworks in a salute to the vibrant arts of Asia.

Chinese Art from The Art Institute of Chicago | Christie's

Sold to benefit The Art Institute of Chicago’s Asian Art Acquisition Fund, the sale features 84 lots with a focus on Ming and Qing porcelains, and offers a rare insight into the taste for collecting Chinese ceramics and works of art in the Midwest from the end of the 19th century through the 1980s. Highlights include two Wanli wucai garlic-head vases, a Qianlong mark and period, blue and ...

Chinese Art in Hong Kong: A Brief ... - Christie's Education

Specialist, Chinese Paintings, Christie's London Dr Malcolm McNeill is a Specialist in Chinese Paintings at Christie’s, based in London. He previously worked as an assistant curator of the Chinese collections and the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, as a researcher at the British Museum, and as a translator and tour guide at the National Palace Museum in Taipei.

The Christie's Education 2020 Conference: The Chinese Art ...

The Christie's Education 2020 Conference: The Chinese Art Market 18 Jun 2019 Christie’s Education is delighted to announce our first international academic conference in Asia which will take place in Hong Kong from 26-27 November 2020 at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre and will run in parallel with Christie’s Hong Kong Autumn Auctions.

Chinese Art | Sotheby's

The summer Chinese Art sale in Hong Kong will feature works of art from several private collections, including Qing porcelains and textile from the collection of the legendary Chinese art dealer A. W. Bahr (1877–1959), fine gilt bronze Buddhist sculptures from an old Hong Kong collection, an East Asian collection of Qing dynasty wine cups and jades, and a Japanese collection of Song ceramics ...

Chinese Art Auctions - Chinese Paintings ... - Sothebys.com

Sotheby's Chinese Works of Art Department holds two auctions each year in London, New York, Hong Kong and Paris.

Chinese Art | Sotheby's

Chinese Art - View Auction details, bid, buy and collect the various artworks at Sothebys Art Auction House.

Important Chinese Art | Sotheby's

With more than 340 Chinese works of art dating from the Neolithic to the Republic periods, highlights of this sale include a selection of Qing Imperial monochromes from the collection of Arnold and Blema Steinberg, early ceramics from the Art Institute of Chicago and Chinese porcelain and works of art from the collection of Henry Arnhold.

Important Chinese Art | Sotheby's

Results: Sotheby's Asia Week achieved $52.4 million in six strong auctions, exceeding pre-sale estimates. With 76.5% of lots sold and 60.3% of lots surpassing high estimates, the Asian art sales at Sotheby's indicate continued collector interest in the finest works of art from China, India and and the Himalayas.

Important Chinese Art | Sotheby's

Today's sale of Important Chinese Art will proceed as planned with sessions at 10 AM and 2 PM EDT. Sotheby's will be monitoring the weather conditions throughout the day and will be available to coordinate alternative bidding options should conditions make it difficult for clients to attend the auction in person.

Bonhams : Chinese Works of Art

Bonhams Chinese Art department is renowned for offering the finest works of art representing the richness and breadth of China's artistic heritage, particularly Imperial porcelain, white and spinach green jades, cloisonné and Buddhist art. Specialised international auctions are held globally, including London, Hong Kong and San Francisco.

Bonhams : Chinese Works of Art

Bonhams : Chinese Works of Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.

Bonhams : Fine Chinese Paintings and Works of Art

Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Chinese Art (US) General enquiries

Bonhams : Fine Chinese Art

Bonhams : Fine Chinese Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.

Bonhams : Asian Art

Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars Bonhams : Asian Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site.

Bonhams | Asian Art in London

Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map

Bonhams : Asian Art

Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Asian Art Bonhams. Work. 22 Queen St.

Bidamount is a member of the eBay partner network, eBay is a registered trademark of eBay Inc. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of the Bidamount User Agreement and Privacy Policy. Bidamount, 185 Main Street Suite B., Gloucester, Ma. all content © 2006–2025

proudly powered by WordPress | web design by smallfish-design

‹›×

    ‹›×