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I am considering the purchase of this vase. The foot seemed to have very fine ridges. the decoration is molded or carved. what is its decorative style? what is its age? The mark purports to be Yongzheng. I believe that the dealer claimed it to be 18th or 19th C. and operates a by appointment-only shop which means absolutely nothing to me. he sells the leftovers elsewhere.
I have never seen a Yongzheng period item like this I think it looks strange and modern.
i can accept a verdict of new. the saleswoman went on and on about how exclusive and knowledgeable this dealer was, and that he is chinese. i politely listen to that blather but in the back of my head i always tell myself that there is a high likelihood that he is as ignorant as i am or a fraud. it appears that i saved myself several hundred dollars on a fake.
@tonyatl there are many people who think they know a lot about Asian antiques who are actually quite ignorant, including many long time general antique dealers and people from Asia. I go to this one local consignment shop frequently and one of the dealers there keeps bringing in this blue and white porcelain that she is totally convinced is Kangxi shipwreck salvaged pieces, but I know that it's all modern stuff. And she is considered one of the more knowledgeable dealers for Asian stuff in that shop with 20 or so dealers. It's interesting to see these dynamics as you learn more and more and can tell the difference between old and new, average or great, copies or authentic, etc
@tonyatl there are many people who think they know a lot about Asian antiques who are actually quite ignorant, including many long time general antique dealers and people from Asia. I go to this one local consignment shop frequently and one of the dealers there keeps bringing in this blue and white porcelain that she is totally convinced is Kangxi shipwreck salvaged pieces, but I know that it's all modern stuff. And she is considered one of the more knowledgeable dealers for Asian stuff in that shop with 20 or so dealers. It's interesting to see these dynamics as you learn more and more and can tell the difference between old and new, average or great, copies or authentic, etc
yep - i have seen it many times and have even fallen victim to it usually from the greed of thinking that i could get something for nothing - and sometimes i do. but asian arts are a challenge for me, and i have learned to get second opinions if i have more than a couple hundred dollars at risk.
@tonyatl At that same shop I mentioned before I once saw this old looking Asian picture of an old Buddhist monk. At a distance it looked old and interesting, but after I looked at it up close I could see it was printed and made to look old. Someone had even put it in an old frame, etc. At any rate I was talking to the shop owner the next time I was in and that picture came up and I mentioned to him my observations about it being a modern print made to look old. He told me a dealer had bought it a few days prior who "really knows his stuff".
@johnshoe that was the exact line used on me today. "he really knows his stuff" verbatim. lol
Dealers will slide bad buys on customers without thinking twice. And a shop will peddle his faked all day. Unless you shop at my booth of course. Lol
Hi Tony,
I know very little about Chinese ceramics. But I wouldn't necessarily call this a copy or a fake. Looks like a nice 20th century vase, not intended to deceive, I think. A few hundred dollars is too high, but its a pretty, decorative piece.
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
@watership it is not a copy for sure. i looked at some christie's yongzheng vases and found no form remotely comparable to this one and therefore cannot even be called a fake because it is not copying anything authentic. unfortunately the dealer was peddling it as an antique. and yes it has decorative value. because it has the mark, i would call it a fantasy piece.
It's a modern bowl/jardinare.
Decorative value only.
Mark
It's a modern bowl/jardinare.
Decorative value only.
Mark
thank you for jardiniere. searching the correct term, i do find a remotely similar yongzheng shape documented by christies. it would not be hard to imagine "my" jardiniere as being a permutation of it, and thus plausibly period insofar as it is not necessarily a fantasy piece as i proposed earlier.
A RARE RU-TYPE GLAZED JARDINIERE (christies.com)
so now the question comes down to quality. i don't think that "my" jardiniere has it. on the other hand, i think that the foot is good and glazing is cut sharply and cleanly above the foot - the two factors which caused me to consider it in the first place.
PS - does anyone how the weight should feel of a yongzheng piece? this jardiniere was "heavy" and please don't ask me to define "heavy" 😮
@tonyatl Hi! Again... I'm late to the party! I guess I'm just being fashionable. 🤣
There are two components of authentication, technical (foot rim, form, mark, porcelain type/composition) and artistic (vessel form, enamel color, theme, quality of rendering). By no means is my list of specific areas of assessment complete.
It would be a lie for me to say that I do not use the technical components for authentication, but I will say that it is these components that are easiest to learn and fake (at least in recent years). So, regarding your question on the 'right' weight, it would be very hard to explain it using words, and even if it could be done, it can be copied.
You said that you didn't feel the quality was good enough for Yongzheng...and you are 100% correct, and further assessment of this piece is really unnecessary. However, you are making very good steps towards understanding the process of authentication, so let me add a few thoughts.
I recommend learning the artistic traits FIRST as a method of authentication, THEN apply the technical rules. Why? I'm glad you asked!
First and foremost, I think understanding the artistic elements is just so much more fund and interesting in the field of collecting. It requires learning the historical influences that affected designs, colors, and pottery techniques from each period of China's history, creating a timeline that allows those who understand the art to narrow the window of creation.
Second, it will train your eye to differenciate between the careful hand of a skill period artist, and that of a modern day faker.
Thridly, competency of understanding the artistic elements of Chinese porcelains will at the very least keep you from buying poorly rendered copies that lack any historical connection to known pieces. I own a few beautifully rendered copies...well worth the few hundred dollars I paid for them.
Now, when you encounter a piece that has what I like to call 'artistic merit', meaning there was enough good qualities to its color, rendering, and overall appearance, then further authentication is warranted, and most certainly the discussion of the 'technical' components makes perfect sense.
We must put the horse (artist assessment) before the cart (technical asssessment), sort of speak.
@greeno107 i appreciate your advice - it makes sense. do you recommend an if-i-could-only-buy-one-book on chinese porcelains? something covering glazes, feet, color palettes, shapes, motifs by period? it's harder to teach artistic cues than technical ones.
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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