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Very different, I think it is just a different palette. The style of mine more fits the sketchy nature of grisaille painted pieces of which I have had quite a few. Those ones you chose certainly are reminiscent of the Mandarin palette pieces also from the mid 18th century. Here is one from Brunk, similar in style to mine.
https://brunkauctions.com/lot/fine-chinese-export-hunt-scene-punch-bowl-3927927
Jeremy
It is slightly less colorful, but it looks genuine. There is a similar for sale by a Aution house called brunk in North carolina and whether that is a cause for concern or vindication depends on the AUction house.
Brunk
https://brunkauctions.com/lot/fine-chinese-export-hunt-scene-punch-bowl-3927927
http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2015/11/04/32882529.html
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-5648123
Some similar copies so unlikely to be bespoke.
Is it the Shunzhi one that you have listed if I recall correctly, or do you have one like this?
That one is very attractive.
Jeremy
Thank you,
No water, ever, and plenty of mild solvents, added all reversible fills and retouching, and a synthetic resin varnish. It took maybe 75 hours....glad it is over and sold.
I personally would never suggest water go anywhere near an oil painting, especially early ones as the ground layers are very susceptible to de-laminating.
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 The Brunk's example....hmmm....not sure that is a genuine piece, either. The sale price certainly doesn't bode well for a genuine piece. If genuine, I still would recommend against paying for restoration.
Short Dong posted some good examples from Christies and Sotheby's (In fact I clipped the Sotheby's example in my original post photo), but I think they look quite different in quality than your bowl.
I think it is just a different palette
What palette is your bowl? All the examples I find at major auction houses and museums are Mandarin palette.
Here's another comparison with V&A...
Don't you see the rigid postures, dark colors, unusual faces?
I agree they look different, I do not know what the palette is, but color wise the V&A bowl is pretty spot on, also the style is not all that much more rigid in mine, I do not think export ware were all that consistent, especially as far as facial features got and figurative elements. these are in a slightly better light I think the contrast of the pictures before was off and still slightly.
Brunk is by the way a very reputable auction house, I doubt theirs is not of the period.
Jeremy
P.S. I will ultimately reach out to Peter but just have not yet, I will post back after.
Hello Jeremy,
You always find nice things. This is modelled after a c. 1765 punch bowl. Here is a punch bowl very similar to yours in China for the West by Ayers/Howard, p. 281-2 vol. I.
This side shows James Seymour's "Going out in the Morning." Also, compare the above photo.
This side shows Seymour's "Brushing into Cover."
This side shows Seymour's "In Full Chase"
This side shows Anthony Walker's "The Death of the Fox."
I think it is genuine. This motif was very popular and was done in different designs/palettes. Ayers/Howard explain in China for the West that "minor differences are possibly attributable as much to the engraver copies as to the enameller (although the trees were always painted in a Chinese style and sometimes adapted or added as called for by the overall design.)." Palettes range from famille rose, mandarin, and en grisaille, and designs range from continuous to panels. Examples:
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6251058
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6187793
https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-6251010
The closest I could find for you:
If it's for sale, let me know your price through email? I'm curious.
Kindly,
John
@jbeer2121 I think that is a good idea to reach out to Peter. I'm sorry I'm the one who poo-poos stuff like this, but I've seen this trend in 'damaged' pieces with signs of 'old' restorations showing up a lot lately with European style themes, and it is rather alarming.
I think what is going on is the 'old' damage/restoration is a smoke screen. Furthermore, since European scenes depict people in styles that are not quite Chinese, but not quite European, that these piecees are get more leniency than other more traditional motifs.
Instinctivley, as collectors we think, "who would restore a fake?" Right?
Well, if you have a warehouse full of fakes that you can't sell because they're too perfect... perhaps adding damage/restorations is a good way to move them out.
I think the better question to ask when you encounter a damaged/restored piece (I see you have staple holes in your bowl) is, "was the quality of this piece good enough to justify the expense of having it restored during the 19th c.?"
That's where I think the ball lands into a very grey area on your bowl. It is perhaps good enough for a low quality 18th c. export piece of ordinary design, but a hunting scene??? That's a pretty special design.
As always...I hope my concerns are proven wrong.
Is it the Shunzhi one that you have listed if I recall correctly, or do you have one like this?
That one is very attractive.
Jeremy
Hi Jeremy,
I posted my hunting bowl a couple of years ago on here but pictures seem to disappear on bidamount after a certain time period,making older posts pointless to read.
It is a Qianlong Bowl like the Sotheby’s example below but with an Elephant in the centre of the Bowl. I’ll add a few pictures later.
MyShunzhi/early Kangxi Bowl is the earliest Mongolian hunting pattern that I can find,as opposed to European hunting scenes pattern.
Regards
Vic
I understand the skepticism, and it is always warranted.
I am sure Peter can sort this out.
The auction I purchased this from is a subsidiary of Doyle (for items that do not meet the standards of their auctions), and the estate is that of Laura Bostwick, of the prominent New York Bostwick family( great grandfather founding partner of Standard Oil, father tennis/polo/ racing star)... I do not really get the same feeling I would if I had bought this else where.
I don't agree that this is low quality for export of the late 18th century, mid quality perhaps, but not bottom of the barrel, especially for the sketch style painting. This style, I'm sure there is a technical name, which follows many of the tenets of grisaille painting, and as the 18th century came to an end the quantity of pieces produced certainly dropped the time spent on decorating and in turn the overall quality of export as a whole.
Here is a cup dating to around 1770s that has quite goofy faces, and was hastily decorated.
I do get where you are coming from and I appreciate the insights, I will post when I hear back from peter.
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 Just to let you know, my concern regarding the use of 'old repairs' and damage started about 5 years ago with my own experience.
I bought a square blue & white tray while on a trip to Peru from a very wealthy client who's house (more of a castle than a house) was quite literally filled with Eurpean art and antiques. The tray had a very believable 19th c. staple repair, but because the design was Yuan, I was confident it was quite valuable and bought it (damage & staples) for $2400.
I brought it to NY and showed it to a long standing expert from one of the major auction houses who also agreed that it was Yuan, quite valuable (in the range of $60,000 to 80,000 USD), but would need to be TL tested. I naturally agreed.
However, the test came back negative, much to the surprise of the expert. Convinced that the piece was genuine, the expert suggested that since TL tests measure when the plate was last kiln fired, he suspected that the false result was due to the tray having been in a house fire at some point in time.
The NY expert reached out to a specialist in Great Britain, a true specialist of Yuan porcelains who tested the cobalt to see if it had the same chemical composition as Yuan period pieces.
This test produced a positive result, it was indeed Yuan period cobalt (at least chemically), but further inspection of the porcelain by the Yuan expert resulted in a decision that my tray was a very very sophisticated fake... quite modern. We had all been mislead to one degree or another by the 'old' staple repair.
Now, I don't live and die by this one experience, but it heightened my awareness, and consequently when I see interesting 'damaged' pieces show up in the market, I pay extra attention to the details.
You might have read my harsh criticism of Doyle's $2 million dollar sale of a poorly rendered European scene on a mallet vase that was missing the entire top, cracks down the side, and stained.....sorry, but that's ridiculous to think someone actually would pay that kind of money for that piece. Fantastic pieces with far less damage result in much lower sales amounts regularly.
Anyway, the number of 'damaged' pieces that are in fact fakes with fake damage that I've come across has increased year after year, and this method of trickery is extremely effectively, and fools a great many experts and novices alike.
I am a huge fan of buying and keeping damaged pieces, so it's very unfortunate that this is the world we live in. But, at the end of the day, as a collector you have to set aside the distractions, and focus on the highlights of every piece you wish to own, and before buying, ask, 'does that look the way it is suppose to look?' And, if you can't quite match it up...well, you know my feelings.
I've seen many of your posts... you have a great eye, so I'm sure you've nothing to worry about...just my own suspicious mind hard at work.
Tim I appreciate all that you have said, and I am terribly sorry to hear about that experience, I do agree that fakes have gotten so darn good, and the broken fakes that are meant to trick you are increasingly common.
I just thought I would update this, Peter does think it is undoubtedly Qianlong period, and though it is an atypical depiction, and the enamels are also atypical, it is of the same type that the V&A, and that John posted from China for the West by Ayers/Howard.
Thanks again for your input, and I know we may not agree on this one, but I always do appreciate the devils advocate.
Jeremy
John,
Sorry I hadn't replied, just wanted to confirm things with Peter, I will email you shortly. Just wanted to thank you for the examples you posted, as they are the same ones Peter compared this to.
He did say the foot rim was the dead giveaway also.
Cheers,
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 I'm really happy things worked out that way. Again, sorry for being an alarmist, but we really have gotten into a time where the craziest things are being done to sell reproductions.
It reminds me one time I purchased a few small inexpensive swatow plates (I think I still may have a few) that had the red and blue glaze of birds or phoenix...something like that.
Anyway, there was no doubt about the age of the plate, but the decoration seems somewhat fresh, but who would fake swatow of the most inexpensive quality????
Crazy as it sounds, one swipe with a cotton ball and acetone and the red and blue wiped clean off! They were just undecorated plates of the swatow era, but someone thought to boost their value by adding some decoration.
So, instead of $10 for an undecorated plate, they got me for $15 a plate. It couldn't possibly been worth the time and energy just to make an extra $5 per plate, but it happened!
I'm sincerely happy that is not the case for your bowl!
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