The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want.  You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic.  Maximum image file  size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc. Â
NOTE: To post an item or add a new post, click open the category title from the FORUM LIST, and CLICK the Blue ADD TOPIC button.Â
Hello all,
I recently got some great items out of a wealthy estate and one of them was this incredible Chinese bronze censer. I just wanted to get other people's opinions on how old it actually is...? Also, did it have a lid?
I've seen quite a few very similar sold at Christies, some in lots, some by themselves, and they range in age between late Ming Dynasty, and 18/19th century.  I believe this is an early one, possibly 18th century, and it has some numbers and letters on the button probably from another collection or museum. Just want to see if anyone here has good knowledge of these and has collected them for some time? Thank you for all inputs.
Measurements:Â 9" Inches Tall by 9-1/8" Wide
Eric
Â
Â
Hi Eric,
I am just pretty hopeless on Chinese Bronzes, but it does look like it may have had a lid. I imagine the lower rim inside is what it may have rested on?
In the worn bit underneath is there some white stuff/discolouration? Sorry, I am not very technical! Â
Julia
Hey Julia, thank you very much for the response anyway! That's what I was thinking about the lower rim, so it may have had a lid, but the others I've seen didn't have one either so who knows. The white specs is likely just nothing in the top right of the last picture, but the white spot in the center of the worn/corroded area is actually a tiny hole that you can see through and the backround is white. Thanks
Ah, I see. I did wonder if it was a hole but I couldn't notice it from the inside. Hope someone can help you with your questions.
Hi Eric,Â
Chinese/other bronze is a very specialized area of collecting. Currently in China there are millions of reproductions etc.
Although I am no means an expert with said I believe your censer is a 20th century production. The lack of natural patina along with the crude depiction of the upper top design indicates to my eye later production. Also the body looks smooth.
In my opinion this censer would most definitely had a lid at some point.Â
I hope Xin weighs in. He is very knowledgeable on this subject.Â
MarkÂ
Hi Eric!
Â
I agree with Mark. A modern copy, 20th Century. Supposed to look like a late Ming Dynasty Censer. The body is polished while on the handles you can see rough marks to further corrosion.Â
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Hello, thank you guys for your input, but I have to very strongly disagree. The patina is fantastic, old, with many areas of natural wear. The inside shows a roughness from use and is not anywhere close to the faked copies with the added chemicals. Please be aware that this item also came with items that are currently well over $800 on ebay and still bidding. I understand your concerns and thoughts where most pieces that come to a random forum are copies. Please see a similar one below.
Â
I didn't show the dings and dents from over the years, but that might help.
Hello.Eric,
The Christie's link you posted shows a genuine Ming Censer with striking differences to your censer...
I mentioned the handles already. The Ming censer from Christie's has seperatley made handles, attachted later.Â
Your copy's handles are connected to the mouth of the censer because it was cast as a whole and the reworked and polished. It's just easier this way.
Also because of this connection between handles and body the already mentioned "rough work' on the handles. You just can't get there without the right polishing mashine...
And for the patina... burry the censer in acidic soil for a while and you used no chemicals at all. It is a common practice with forgers...
Â
with Best Regards...
Carsten
I agree with others that your censer and the Christie ones are not at all alike - patina can mean lots of things , for me it means where the surface has been used and touched many times over the years and centuries so natural oils and other chemicals from fingers builds up on the surface of wood, bamboo, bronze etc. This can't be faked (for now). Your censer doesn't seem to have much of this kind of touch patina and the colour is more or less as it came out the production process.Â
Â
tam
I thank you both very much for your opinions. But in all honesty, I think you guys are just so paranoid of fakes that you brush everything off as disengenuous. I've posted quite a few items here, and almost every single time the first few people told me FAKE or 20TH CENTURY, until someone else came along and disputed it. Seriously, check! Then I go and sell it on Ebay and they all do incredibly well. I appreciate Mark saying he's not an expert though.
I'm not saying the Christies example is the exact same thing... but there are incredible similarities, along with others. I mean there's a chance that it could be a good fake, but there's a lot of positives going for it. It came out of a wealthy collector's home, along with 18th century porcelain, edo period japanese bronzes, and more. The label on the bottom is certainly aged, and if it was a fake label it would have likely had an auction house name or something, the bottom center is worn through and corroded from use and wear, with the right amount of tarnish and corrosion. There are similar examples stated as Ming or 17/18th century with similar patinas. It certainly could have been polished in the past, and the patina might not be just as dark as some other examples, plus my pictures were taken outside in direct sunlight but the pictures I take of it inside are much darker. Â
Here's another example, is that a fake too?
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/48919100_chinese-bronze-foolion-tripod-censer
Don't try this at home but I remember reading a book by an antiques expert from an earlier age that patina could be restored by baking the piece in a lemon juice solution but I can't remember the temperature he recommended and Peter said in a video that Chinese pieces were often polished and that it didn't matter that much, plus I did try this same writer's recommendation to boil a cracked porcelain in milk to fill in the crack and all I ended up with was a cracked plate with dried and flaky milk along the crack.
P.S. Not to misquote Peter's video, I think he said it didn't bother him too much in regard to that particular piece. In any case the point was that patina can also be faked, caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.
True I agree, patina is not the most important factor when trying to determine age. I'm seeing censers with handles attached to the mouth, like the one below, and censers without being attached to the mouth like the Christies and above example. Maybe some were cast as one piece, and some were cast with arms added after...I don't see that as being the determining factor.
Hi Eric,
I just gave you my opinion about the censer. Don't take it that serious. You know opinions are like a*sh**es everybody's got one 😂
If you say the provenance checks out for you and you have researched similar censers and that you are convinced about your dating, then better don't bother with seeking assuarance. 😉
I have experienced the same "that's a fake!" talk and later sold it for good money. Antiques are rarely an excact sience but rather opinions based on comparison, at least looking at the field of bronzes...
As said... some things don't add up for me... but that's just me!Â
All the Best and stay healthy!
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Latest Post: Please help identifying the signature Our newest member: Bivvo Degnaccio Recent Posts Unread Posts
Thanks for visiting "The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art"
If you sell on eBay, or have a shop feel free to post images and descriptions and links.
Check back often for discussion about the latest news in the Chinese art and antique world. Also find out about the latest Asian art auctions at Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonhams and Tajans.
Auction results for: fine porcelain, ceramics, bronze, jade, textiles and scholar's objects. As well as Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese and other Asian cultures.
Thank you,
Peter Combs
Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.Â
Join the BidAmount Chinese and Asian art discussion board and forum today
The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.Â
The art of calligraphy - and for the ancient Chinese it certainly was an art - aimed to demonstrate superior control and skill using brush and ink. Calligraphy established itself as one of the major Chinese art forms during the Han dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE), and for two millennia after, all educated men were expected to be proficient at it.
The Museum’s collections of Asian art span nearly five millennia and encompass the cultures of China, the Himalayas, India, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia. In 2007, the Museum launched an initiative to create dedicated galleries for the collection, beginning with a gallery for the arts of Korea ...
Chinese art is full of symbolism, in that artists typically seek to depict some aspect of a totality of which they are intuitively aware.
China Online Museum is the finest online museum of Chinese art. It features Chinese calligraphy, painting, ceramics, bronzes, carving, and other artworks.
Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art. Overview Upcoming auctions Contacts Auction results ... Christie’s sales of Chinese ceramics and works of art showcase centuries of Chinese history. Held throughout the year in London, New York, Paris and Hong Kong, they attract a wide audience of collectors and connoisseurs vying for pieces as diverse as ...
Explore Asian Art Week. Contact the Specialist Department. Chinese Paintings ... Senior Specialist, Head of Sale. [email protected]. Tel:+1 212 641 5760. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 September 2019 at New York. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 ...
Discover an abundance of must-see art from all corners of a vast continent at Christie’s NY Asian Art Week. From contemporary classical and Chinese paintings to works with exemplary provenance from the Art Institute of Chicago, our Rockefeller Paza galleries will be full of ancient treasures and contemporary masterworks in a salute to the vibrant arts of Asia.
Sold to benefit The Art Institute of Chicago’s Asian Art Acquisition Fund, the sale features 84 lots with a focus on Ming and Qing porcelains, and offers a rare insight into the taste for collecting Chinese ceramics and works of art in the Midwest from the end of the 19th century through the 1980s. Highlights include two Wanli wucai garlic-head vases, a Qianlong mark and period, blue and ...
Specialist, Chinese Paintings, Christie's London Dr Malcolm McNeill is a Specialist in Chinese Paintings at Christie’s, based in London. He previously worked as an assistant curator of the Chinese collections and the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, as a researcher at the British Museum, and as a translator and tour guide at the National Palace Museum in Taipei.
The Christie's Education 2020 Conference: The Chinese Art Market 18 Jun 2019 Christie’s Education is delighted to announce our first international academic conference in Asia which will take place in Hong Kong from 26-27 November 2020 at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre and will run in parallel with Christie’s Hong Kong Autumn Auctions.
The summer Chinese Art sale in Hong Kong will feature works of art from several private collections, including Qing porcelains and textile from the collection of the legendary Chinese art dealer A. W. Bahr (1877–1959), fine gilt bronze Buddhist sculptures from an old Hong Kong collection, an East Asian collection of Qing dynasty wine cups and jades, and a Japanese collection of Song ceramics ...
Sotheby's Chinese Works of Art Department holds two auctions each year in London, New York, Hong Kong and Paris.
Chinese Art - View Auction details, bid, buy and collect the various artworks at Sothebys Art Auction House.
With more than 340 Chinese works of art dating from the Neolithic to the Republic periods, highlights of this sale include a selection of Qing Imperial monochromes from the collection of Arnold and Blema Steinberg, early ceramics from the Art Institute of Chicago and Chinese porcelain and works of art from the collection of Henry Arnhold.
Results: Sotheby's Asia Week achieved $52.4 million in six strong auctions, exceeding pre-sale estimates. With 76.5% of lots sold and 60.3% of lots surpassing high estimates, the Asian art sales at Sotheby's indicate continued collector interest in the finest works of art from China, India and and the Himalayas.
Today's sale of Important Chinese Art will proceed as planned with sessions at 10 AM and 2 PM EDT. Sotheby's will be monitoring the weather conditions throughout the day and will be available to coordinate alternative bidding options should conditions make it difficult for clients to attend the auction in person.
Bonhams Chinese Art department is renowned for offering the finest works of art representing the richness and breadth of China's artistic heritage, particularly Imperial porcelain, white and spinach green jades, cloisonné and Buddhist art. Specialised international auctions are held globally, including London, Hong Kong and San Francisco.
Bonhams : Chinese Works of Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Chinese Art (US) General enquiries
Bonhams : Fine Chinese Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars Bonhams : Asian Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site.
Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Asian Art Bonhams. Work. 22 Queen St.