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Hello all,
I recently got some great items out of a wealthy estate and one of them was this incredible Chinese bronze censer. I just wanted to get other people's opinions on how old it actually is...? Also, did it have a lid?
I've seen quite a few very similar sold at Christies, some in lots, some by themselves, and they range in age between late Ming Dynasty, and 18/19th century. I believe this is an early one, possibly 18th century, and it has some numbers and letters on the button probably from another collection or museum. Just want to see if anyone here has good knowledge of these and has collected them for some time? Thank you for all inputs.
Measurements: 9" Inches Tall by 9-1/8" Wide
Eric
Hi Eric,
I am just pretty hopeless on Chinese Bronzes, but it does look like it may have had a lid. I imagine the lower rim inside is what it may have rested on?
In the worn bit underneath is there some white stuff/discolouration? Sorry, I am not very technical!
Julia
Hey Julia, thank you very much for the response anyway! That's what I was thinking about the lower rim, so it may have had a lid, but the others I've seen didn't have one either so who knows. The white specs is likely just nothing in the top right of the last picture, but the white spot in the center of the worn/corroded area is actually a tiny hole that you can see through and the backround is white. Thanks
Ah, I see. I did wonder if it was a hole but I couldn't notice it from the inside. Hope someone can help you with your questions.
Hi Eric,
Chinese/other bronze is a very specialized area of collecting. Currently in China there are millions of reproductions etc.
Although I am no means an expert with said I believe your censer is a 20th century production. The lack of natural patina along with the crude depiction of the upper top design indicates to my eye later production. Also the body looks smooth.
In my opinion this censer would most definitely had a lid at some point.
I hope Xin weighs in. He is very knowledgeable on this subject.
Mark
Hi Eric!
I agree with Mark. A modern copy, 20th Century. Supposed to look like a late Ming Dynasty Censer. The body is polished while on the handles you can see rough marks to further corrosion.
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Hello, thank you guys for your input, but I have to very strongly disagree. The patina is fantastic, old, with many areas of natural wear. The inside shows a roughness from use and is not anywhere close to the faked copies with the added chemicals. Please be aware that this item also came with items that are currently well over $800 on ebay and still bidding. I understand your concerns and thoughts where most pieces that come to a random forum are copies. Please see a similar one below.
I didn't show the dings and dents from over the years, but that might help.
Hello.Eric,
The Christie's link you posted shows a genuine Ming Censer with striking differences to your censer...
I mentioned the handles already. The Ming censer from Christie's has seperatley made handles, attachted later.
Your copy's handles are connected to the mouth of the censer because it was cast as a whole and the reworked and polished. It's just easier this way.
Also because of this connection between handles and body the already mentioned "rough work' on the handles. You just can't get there without the right polishing mashine...
And for the patina... burry the censer in acidic soil for a while and you used no chemicals at all. It is a common practice with forgers...
with Best Regards...
Carsten
I agree with others that your censer and the Christie ones are not at all alike - patina can mean lots of things , for me it means where the surface has been used and touched many times over the years and centuries so natural oils and other chemicals from fingers builds up on the surface of wood, bamboo, bronze etc. This can't be faked (for now). Your censer doesn't seem to have much of this kind of touch patina and the colour is more or less as it came out the production process.
tam
I thank you both very much for your opinions. But in all honesty, I think you guys are just so paranoid of fakes that you brush everything off as disengenuous. I've posted quite a few items here, and almost every single time the first few people told me FAKE or 20TH CENTURY, until someone else came along and disputed it. Seriously, check! Then I go and sell it on Ebay and they all do incredibly well. I appreciate Mark saying he's not an expert though.
I'm not saying the Christies example is the exact same thing... but there are incredible similarities, along with others. I mean there's a chance that it could be a good fake, but there's a lot of positives going for it. It came out of a wealthy collector's home, along with 18th century porcelain, edo period japanese bronzes, and more. The label on the bottom is certainly aged, and if it was a fake label it would have likely had an auction house name or something, the bottom center is worn through and corroded from use and wear, with the right amount of tarnish and corrosion. There are similar examples stated as Ming or 17/18th century with similar patinas. It certainly could have been polished in the past, and the patina might not be just as dark as some other examples, plus my pictures were taken outside in direct sunlight but the pictures I take of it inside are much darker.
Here's another example, is that a fake too?
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/48919100_chinese-bronze-foolion-tripod-censer
Don't try this at home but I remember reading a book by an antiques expert from an earlier age that patina could be restored by baking the piece in a lemon juice solution but I can't remember the temperature he recommended and Peter said in a video that Chinese pieces were often polished and that it didn't matter that much, plus I did try this same writer's recommendation to boil a cracked porcelain in milk to fill in the crack and all I ended up with was a cracked plate with dried and flaky milk along the crack.
P.S. Not to misquote Peter's video, I think he said it didn't bother him too much in regard to that particular piece. In any case the point was that patina can also be faked, caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.
True I agree, patina is not the most important factor when trying to determine age. I'm seeing censers with handles attached to the mouth, like the one below, and censers without being attached to the mouth like the Christies and above example. Maybe some were cast as one piece, and some were cast with arms added after...I don't see that as being the determining factor.
Hi Eric,
I just gave you my opinion about the censer. Don't take it that serious. You know opinions are like a*sh**es everybody's got one 😂
If you say the provenance checks out for you and you have researched similar censers and that you are convinced about your dating, then better don't bother with seeking assuarance. 😉
I have experienced the same "that's a fake!" talk and later sold it for good money. Antiques are rarely an excact sience but rather opinions based on comparison, at least looking at the field of bronzes...
As said... some things don't add up for me... but that's just me!
All the Best and stay healthy!
with Best Regards...
Carsten
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