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Hey Folks,
These are puzzling to me... I have never seen celadon ground famille verte before, at least not Kangxi or Yongzheng which they'd have to be.... I bought them for fairly cheap so I am not really worried if I messed up.
The paste looks okay for 18th century, and doesn't seem overtly modern, the enamels are what I'd expect, and there is the halo effect I've only seen on those early to mid 18th century blues. My problem is the flowers seem sloppy (the scrolling vines look okay though), I suppose for export it might be okay, though I am unfamiliar with that style flower ( I swear I have seen that before though I just have no idea where). the rim appears red in some pics I took, but it is brown dressed, not red.
The number on the bottom is engraved and inked over, should be the mark for Chinese green wares ( letter I) for the collection of Augustus the Strong of Saxony. I have looked at a bunch of the variants of these marks and it looks okay to me... never dealt with it before so take that with a grain of salt.
They are quite filthy, but I won't be cleaning them until I figure out how not to mess up the inked mark. One is crazed and one is not, I assume firing issues is all, but that one is quite stained.
I'd love to hear some opinions, see some other examples.....
Many thanks and cheers,
Jeremy
SO I am trying not to freak out but.......
https://skd-online-collection.skd.museum/Details/Index/135623
Well, I don't know how I had missed that example on my first searches in the collection before buying the bowls, but it seems that the measurements and markings all line up, as well as the somewhat sloppy flowers.... seems these are legit. There are four of these in the collection all marked N.84 I, and only 22 Celadon and Famille Verte pieces total out of roughly 7000 pieces, so I guess that explains why I had never seen the combination. This is pretty wild!
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 congratulations on your purchase. Your eye is going to find you many treasures. These look good to me.
Thanks Brian! It was a late night find and purchase and then the next day I was having my doubts. Once handling them I was thinking I've never seen this before but they feel right and look right.... Ha ha. I guess I should ask Peter his thoughts, but I am pretty sure I need to hang onto these for a bit.
Cheers,
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 I put these comparison pics together for you to look at...
I think artistically, the looseness is not a concern... both are quite loosely drawn. However, the color of the base celadon glaze is different, the spacial relations / proportions are different in the design as it relates to the cup, and on the center medallion on the inside of the cup, notice that the flower on your cup is rendered close to the bottom... not well centered.
Is this degree of variation expected? I don't collect export, so I don't know what the right answer is to that question.
The inner medallion of your cup also has more petals in the outer ring ... I counted 8 blue in the museum example, and 11 in yours.
I think the design differences Tim points out are reasonable variations to expect in export ware. The color difference might just be a lighting issue. They look good, but might as well ask Peter.
@greeno107 Thanks for the side by sides, I get what your saying. The celadon is far closer to the museum examples in person, its super washed out in the pictures.... rainy day here so its shot under my lights, tomorrow Ill get some properly white balanced shots.. I looked at all four that they have and the all vary quite a bit, the inner medalion touches the edges on one, the petals are also different on each, one has three, one hasfour, one five, and that one eight if I am counting right. To be honest I don't know what to expect with these, I do expect a bunch of variation in export services, I think later export (yongzheng/ Qianlong and later) they were much better at making them fairly identical.
I don't know.... but over all I think they are okay.
Cheers,
Jeremy
link to all the celadon and famille verte wares in the collection.
@jbeer2121 The 'N;84' in grease pencil looks like it is written by the very same hand... that's kind of interesting.
I believe that the ink mark was engraved and inked in 1726 for the first inventory, I believe they got to a few hundred numbers in the Green or "I" category. I am not entirely sure how many people worked on it but quite a few of the verte and imari pieces look to be the same hand, the blue and white especially, looks different.
@jbeer2121 here are some Kangxi famille verte celadon ground pieces I just saw while searching something else. https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2020/kangxi-porcelain-a-private-collection/a-pair-of-celadon-ground-famille-verte-fruit-bowls
Jeremy, I can't remember at which major auction house I did seen similar markings..If I am not mistaken, previously - it's either museum or respectable private collection..If I am not mistaken..I know that I did seen something very similar..Worth to have this on your mind. No idea how to find this again if be honest..Hope so, that I am not in any sort confusion on this.
Hi Jeremy, a good find. The inventory number looks authentic. Chinese and Japanese items from the collection were often copied in Meissen in these days and sometimes even have the same inventory number as the originals. This might explain the difference - maybe yours are Meissen copies. The sword mark was only used from 1723 on.
Don't be afraid of carefully cleaning the cups in some dishwasher liquid. I just compared my plate with the original seller's pictures, and the cleaning hasn't worn away the inventory number.
Birgit
Thanks! I will clean them up, I was looking into it and the India ink should really fade once its soaked into the porcelain.
I am pretty sure they are Chinese, the foot just looks it, as do the enamels.
An interesting thing is also the halo effect around the blue enamel, really only seen on the early attempts (mid to late Kangxi- yongzheng/early qianlong) where there was an issue with the flux and possibly the addition of potassium nitrate, leaving an oil on water effect, I believe this is from Nigel Wood's book.
What ever these are, its pretty darn cool.
Cheers,
Jeremy
The halo effect:
I was able to chase the sun around this morning and snap a few pics that are better :
@jbeer2121 I would suggest looking at the rim glaze for narrowing down time.
Yongzheng period can not be ruled out.
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