Hi Adrian, 

A nice bitong you have purchased. A real pity about the damage etc. 

I am by no means an expert on these things. However it's my thoughts that it's a 19th century example and unlikely to be earlier. 

Mark 

@imperialfinegems

Hi Mark,

Many thanks for sharing with me your thoughts. I find bitongs quite hard to date correctly. I have seen quite a lot of them and sometimes pieces from 17th C can mislead with their look. I have one more bitong with similar motifs (almost identical) - bamboo woods and sages that I am quite positive it is 19th C - few people have inspected it in person and confirmed. I believe there are subtle differences, hence I was hoping this one could be possibly just a bit older.

Yeah, that damage is horrible, but it was extremely inexpensive...

I'll post pictures of the other one tomorrow.

Thanks again Mark!

Kind regards,
Adrian

Nice scholars having a game of go.

I had one very like that, hole and all! 

Trying to work out the age of these is hard. In the end I sold mine as maybe 19th but possibly early 20th c.  I am not on my pc so can't see your photos too well, but I felt the decoration on mine was less soft, more angular, more reliant on lines and depicted a typical style of decoration than earlier versions. I also felt the older ones tended to be decorated all round.

I don't know if those observations are valid or even helpful, but that was my experience and it will be interesting to see what your other one is like. I rather like these things. 😊 

Posted by: @sharonp

Nice scholars having a game of go.

Hi Sharon,

Yes, I've noticed, it's quite cool actually. Go is a big thing in Asia, I wasn't really aware how mad and serious they are about it until I watched documentary about AI designed to play in, titled Alphago.

Best regards,
Adrian

Posted by: @julia

I had one very like that, hole and all! 

Trying to work out the age of these is hard. In the end I sold mine as maybe 19th but possibly early 20th c.  I am not on my pc so can't see your photos too well, but I felt the decoration on mine was less soft, more angular, more reliant on lines and depicted a typical style of decoration than earlier versions. I also felt the older ones tended to be decorated all round.

I don't know if those observations are valid or even helpful, but that was my experience and it will be interesting to see what your other one is like. I rather like these things. 😊 

Hi Julia,

What you have described applies 1:1 to the situation I have with this one and the other I have promised to post (I'll do it in an hour or so). 

This one is let's say one level higher in terms of quality of decorations, but still I find it not very fine - there are bitongs so nicely carved, but those are extremely expensive obviously. When I look at those 2 the difference is striking, it's like looking at 2 paintings of the same or similar subject but with a decent age difference between them. 

I will also post a listing from Christies - they had a pair dated as 19th C. You might find yours very much alike...

Kind regards,

Adrian

Here are the 2 bitongs next to each other.

Hello All,

 Most brush pots carved from bamboo stems no matter how well carved will over time deteriorate and lose definition. This because of the structure of bamboo. Stems are in 3 layers the two outer layers are hard and shell like the center layer is soft and pithy. This center layer over time absorbs moisture and pollution from atmosphere causing it swell and look soft and ill defined. The very best looking carvings on bamboo stems are those cut in shallow relief.  In Adrian's example the carver has cleverly carved the figures in the outer shell removed the softer center and carved the back layer with some details. Very nice examples !

Michael   

@brettm

Dear Michael,

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, I wasn't aware of that at all, hence it's much appreciated!

All I knew about qualities of bamboo carvings was that it requires certain temperature and humidity otherwise it will simply crack and it basically always happens in typical homes outside of Asia due to the heating in the winter.

Here is the listing from Christie's:
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-pair-of-chinese-seven-sages-bamboo-5822480-details.aspx

I do find them identical to the taller one of mine.

This one I had at a few fairs with me priced really low and it was gaining a lot of attention, I think mainly due to a high number of later examples available everywhere around, I guess...

What do you think?

Kind regards,
Adrian 

I have a question about the cracking that occurs with these. I have seen one at a local shop that I think they have labelled as being from the Ming dynasty. It has an erotic scene carved into it. It also has some very bad cracking that has literally split the piece all the way down. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of it but I am wondering what the splitting means for value? My guess is that it has a significant impact, but I'd like to know what those of you with more knowledge about these have to say. Also, if the erotic scene is something typically found on these at all and from the Ming era, or if that might make it unusual, rare, or even a modern fake? If I have time this week I will go see if the piece is still for sale and get a picture of it and post it so you can see it. 

@johnshoe

I think any damage is always affecting the final price, however the approach can vary significantly due to couple of factors. At the end it is always a case of how much someone is willing to pay for a particular item. There might be buyers who don't care too much about the condition as long as they display side is fine and they can still put that item on the shelf and enjoy it like that - if there is any damage to the back for example, they won't mind that. Other collectors won't tolerate that at all. With bamboo brush pots it's extremely rare to find an example without any cracks, splits, etc. The taller of mine has a large split that was filled and masked and to me it doesnt really matter at all, it is still a nicely looking item. From a dealer's perspective - I have to reflect that in my asking price, however it won't be a massive difference, because I am certain it's a genuine piece and the damage is on the back as well, plus if I am already starting low with my price, then I'm not really bothered. Any damage to the front with main motifs affected, well that would be a gamechanger I think... Slightly different situation we have in terms of porcelain when even a small defect can drop the price extremely low...

Bamboo brush pot from Ming sounds fascinating, I would love to see that one as I am more familiar with Qing dynasty (late Qing) and I have not seen many Ming ones. Please try to get that snap 🙂 maybe it's still available...

Kind regards,
Adrian

Adrian, I like your second one, it has much more detailed carving. As you say, it is very similar to the Christie's pair. Mine was more like your first one.

I also had another smaller one, only 4 inches, if that. I felt that one was newer but it was still the same kind of pattern as the first one you posted.

I currently have two rather tall Japanese ones, 20th c, I think. If they were unpacked I would put a photo of them up for comparison.

Hi Adrian,

I find it difficult comparing items from photographs. Christie's have the advantage of using professional photographers and ideal lighting, and the rest of us do the best we can with what we have. Your larger pot compares well the carving of the leaves around the top and the roof detail look to be well done. The figures don't seem quite as sharp as in the Christie's pair but that may only be due to the quality of the lens they used.  I don't think it is wise to try and compare items unless they are side by side and photographed under the same conditions. I like your taller pot due to the scene of gentlemen out side in the bamboo grove and below inside a rock cave. As far as splits are concerned that is in the nature of stem bamboo.  It's a funny thing I have noticed in resin copies made to deceive they often cast in a crack or two. Yet on genuine old ones people get concerned about cracks. Of course items that have large splits or unsightly damage will be of lesser value.  The other thing to bear in mind the Christie's example are a pair hence the price.

Michael 

Posted by: @julia

Adrian, I like your second one, it has much more detailed carving. As you say, it is very similar to the Christie's pair. Mine was more like your first one.

I also had another smaller one, only 4 inches, if that. I felt that one was newer but it was still the same kind of pattern as the first one you posted.

I currently have two rather tall Japanese ones, 20th c, I think. If they were unpacked I would put a photo of them up for comparison.

Hi Julia,

I think the 1st one of mine, darker one is actually better, hence might be bit older. Plus the patina and feel gives me that impression. Same applies to carvings, it's clearly visible while comparing that foliage motifs - please see the picture below, I have marked what I mean exactly. Darker one is simply done better while the lighter one with less attention to detail like that. Apologies for the quality of photos, they are out of focus, as I was in a rush.