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I bought two of these recently. One of them was sold to me as 19th century the other is modern. The one I've had for a long time I think is late ming / 18th century. I'm wondering what you guys think. Hope you all had a good Christmas...
The first 2 are 20th century I can’t answer on the third one not sure.
@lotusblack Thanks Brian, The second was sold to me as 19th... The first is obviously modern, so no more guess work needed to know which one I think is pretty old.. possible late ming.
@lotusblack However the second one does seem to have some herbs or something inside it, as when you turn it you can hear the sound of something inside (not the sound of loose stone, but something light).
@thomasumjohnson the second could be late 19th I’m going by the base chisel pins I was told this is a 20th century thing. Older pieces are soldered.
The reason I think the 3rd one is pretty old is because when I got it, a few years ago, It was more covered with Patina. I decided to clean it up a bit (not knowing it would probably devalue it). I've attached pictures of before and after. Later I learned that The first corosion substance on old bronze is CUPRITE, an ox blood colour mineral.
On cuprite will grow the second form of corosion, Malachite, a green coluor crystal/mineral.
On malachite will grow the 3rd form of corosion, Azutite, the nice blue crystal/mineral.
To see if your piece is genuine, it is very simple & impossible to reproduce:
If you scratch the azurite, you must find some Malachite underneath.
And if you scratch that layer of malachite, you MUST find cuprite.
Azurite cannot grow on it's own, it needs malachite.
And Malachite needs the cuprite to grow on it.
There are no exception to that rule, if your piece is made of bronze.
I copied and pasted the above from Asian art forum... But you can see in the photos, the exact same pattern that was one the blue colour, in an oxblood / orange colour. So I presume this is an organic crystalline patina that takes many years to develop.
I don’t know enough about Bronze but I did own a Ming bronze and still own a Ming beast bronze. I did research and came to the conclusion that Ming bronze doesn’t break down in this manner. The alloy is different than other periods yes shows great patina but not this much corrosion. The alloy under the patina on my bronzes is gold to brass color. Not white. So it might also be pre Ming or later Ming it would need to be seen by someone with more experience but the patina itself looks good and natural.
@thomasumjohnson There could be some papers with prayers written on them sealed inside of it. For spiritual reasons I would recommend you keep it sealed and not disturb that. John
I have to let you know that all three are modern copies, including the third one
Not an expert but I think all are modern.
With bases closed is a strong indicator of 20th century.
Mark
@imperialfinegems Bonhams were of the opinion that the 3rd was 18th century, from the photos, not real life, the apraisal was over a year ago..
The 3rd is filled with clay or a hard material, which indicated to me it was not mass produced but a one off, from the casting technique. the original sculpture would have been covered with wax re-sculpted (in wax) leaving the casting core encased in bronze. I'm interested to know why you both think they are modern. I'm open to being wrong, here's a reference to the style..
the second image on the search result..
Hi Thomas,
As I wrote earlier I am not an expert nor a major collector of chinese bronzes.
At the moment I only have one pair of 17/18th century elephants.
My thoughts on your Bronzes were based on patina and the bases. The patina looks fabricated as does the green.
As you know these Buddha's are in mass production.
Perhaps if I may suggest in asking Peter for his opinion.
Mark
@imperialfinegems I think the green is bronze disease, not simulated patina. It can happen to anything made form Bronze. I don't believe the 3rd one, we are discussing is artificial. As I mentioned it has an organic patern of the ox blood red in the same pattern which the green areas have grown organically on top of, which can't be simulated artificially.
I have this other standing buddha, gandhara style, that has an artificial patina. It would have been induced with battery acid.
@imperialfinegems Congratulations! Very nice pair of 18th century bronze, most likely Qianlong period in my opinion. 16-17th century bronzes would be more dramatic and transformative (变形主义), somehow in parallel with the style in late Ming paintings, which was described by James Cahill
I'm in the British museum at the moment, and there is one of your elephants in the enlightenment section, I can't say that I'm convinced they are comparable, in terms of quality feel or the texture of the bronze
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