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Ancient persian language seal

 
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 27/04/2024 6:22 am  

Morning,
I have some Mughal seals and among them I have one that I can neither translate nor date. Usually in the others, there is a four-digit Islamic date, in this case I have only three.
I also cannot translate the inscription.
I don't know if this is the correct forum (in case do you know of any Islamic calligraphy or seal forums?), in the meantime I am attaching two photos (one normal and the other upside down, being a stamp it has to be reversed).
I thank you for your helpfulness.

Warm regards,

Mike

20240427 120727
20240427 120724

 


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
27/04/2024 2:04 pm  

I know nothing of these but I am curious, is it carnelian?

I did screen shot this and traced it in black then ran through google translate and it said "Madras Singh" seemingly common name so not sure that helps.

Jeremy


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 27/04/2024 4:31 pm  

@jbeer2121 Hi Jeremy,

yes they are carnelian agate, a stone sacred to Muslims (it is widely used for islamic seals, both because of their availability because the main caves were in Arabia and India, and because Muhammad is said to have worn a carnelian ring with Quranic verses). I thank you for your help with the translation.
For the date, I discovered the Oxford collection of the Ashmolean Museum and saw that the first number (1) is often omitted. So this is dated 1128 or early 1700s.
Regards,
Mike

   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
27/04/2024 10:56 pm  

@mike59 

the writing are Arabic could be also Persian name . The writings are Ahmad Ibn Farage. It means Ahmad the son of Farage. Or could also be Hamdan Farage.  Either one are first and last name of a person. 


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 28/04/2024 3:04 am  

@asianafficiando wow great. Thank you very much.


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 28/04/2024 6:44 am  

@asianafficiando could you help me to identify this one? (Reversed + stamp)

20240428 121500
20240428 121354

 

Best regards

Mike


   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
28/04/2024 12:53 pm  

@mike59 

good morning,

this is Persian writing. As you know Persian and Arabic alphabet are the same but the wording and meaning of both languages are different .Reading and writing in both languages starts from right to left. The first word and the letters in the above starts from the bottom right corner where the year is written. The year is 1821 or 1812. Then the first word which is above the year is pronounced “bint” could be two meaning daughter of, or female. The next word which is in the middle where the middle 3 dots with the circle are located. The word Pronounced shakouh. This word in Arabic doesn’t make sense which could be Persian meaning. The final word is the top one where the top 3 dots are located along with the curving. That word means “shou-aage” also in Arabic translation doesn’t make sense and that what I believe the meaning is  Persian but the year is the same in Persian  and Arabic .


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 28/04/2024 2:27 pm  

@asianafficiando i thank you for the help.

The inscription appears to be this:

بنت شکوه ع شحا

Is correct?

I just don't understand if the letters ه ع are correct like this or if  ع goes at the end...

The year is 1281 (1864 AD).


   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
28/04/2024 3:36 pm  

@mike59 

the inscription is correct but the the letter g  backward with a dot should be at the end not before the letter with 3 dots. The year remember is written from right to left like their alphabet which makes it 1812. 

best

Nabil.


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 28/04/2024 4:04 pm  

@asianafficiando As also shown by the Ashmolean Museum, the year should never be reversed.  For example: 

The correct inscription is:

بنت شکوه شحاع   ??

 

I have others seals, can I show you?

This post was modified 1 year ago 2 times by Mike

   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
28/04/2024 6:07 pm  

@mike59 

I am not sure, with the museum, the way I learned Arabic is writing everything from right to left but I might be wrong . Please don’t take my words as 100 percent accurate . I am not expert on the language. Sure you can show me more seals . I would be glad to help.

best

Nabil


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 29/04/2024 3:39 am  

@asianafficiando the next one is an ottoman silver seal (reversed picture). Is a woman name?

What is the symbol between the two words?

Screenshot 20230414 221001 Catawiki

 


   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
29/04/2024 5:46 pm  

@mike59 

Hi,

the word is “Naamat Ameen” meaning is blessing Amen. Naamat could be name of a person or the word Blessing the second word is Ameen also could be used as someone name or as Amen. The year is 1322.I have spoken with an Arabic professor regarding the year . You are absolutely right . He said in proper Arabic the year is read from left to right . 

 

 


   
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Mike
 Mike
(@mike59)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
Topic starter 30/04/2024 10:04 am  

@asianafficiando I now post perhaps the most diffivil. It is really peculiar because they used a Tughra for the name. I had to use the two-volume directions to figure it out but it should be Husayn Al Ali. What do you think about it?

1234 AH

df24948b 15ce 4d8f 9352 bd483dbc6ed0
Screenshot 20230906 214434 Catawiki

   
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 Nabil Haidar
(@asianafficiando)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 16
01/05/2024 12:46 am  

@mike59 

could be Hussein el Ali or Hussein bin Ali. The year 1330.


   
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